Are OBE, astral and lucid dreaming the same?

[DreamMaster]

Dreamaster.

I see a person here who needs lots of love and understanding.

I can't speak for anyone else but myself.  I love you and are a wonderful person.  With lots of knowledge and experience.

Thank you for your input.

If you wish learn some more stay.

If you don't move on.

Lots of love and hugs for you.

Thanxx Nova
Lots of love and hugs for you too.

[Michael Raduga]

Guys,  it's funny)
That's why I try to never talk about theories...

I think we should relax and be much more respectful to each other.

DreamMaster, I respect your point of view and don't care about this. Please, just give me the same

"And do not forget I could kill somebody who would dare to tell LD and OBE are the same (9-10 years ago)."

Is this a threath? or do I miss your point here?

It was a hint, that I had the same position as you do now...

If you're going to use this as an reason for your authority then you will encounter problems with the silva methode and the like, since they have been teaching their theories for many more years than you and have traind many more people than you...

Yes, they teach theories. I teach practice. I hate any theories

I suggest you climb down from your high horse and listen to critcs just as well as support. Your biggest critics can be your best suporter...

Give it to me. I like it. But I need critics that related to practice, but not for theories

Do you really claim that there is no difference between the experience of lucid dreaming and the experience of ap/oobe?

It's my opinion. It's my right to think so. What's the problem with you? Everybody may have different point of view and I never care about that... I care about your practice, results.

Please, get it finally

I've had countless AP/OOBE that lasted for hourse (physical time). The longest I've been away was more that 2h.

Are you sure you didn't lose your consciousness time to time while these experiences?)


Maybe 1 question from me?

Why OBE and LD practitioners use the same methods?

[Summerlander]

There's no such thing as objective reality.

Are you sure about that?  In the physical world, if both of us are looking at the same apple tree and the apples are red, we can both agree that they are red, can't we?  Unless you decide to start calling the colour red green - then we have your interpretation...this, of course, is subjective.  But the apple still exists outside of our minds and I can assure you it is very much physical!  The apple tree is not dependent on the mind for it to exist physically.  If we are both dead, the tree will still be there.  Hence...objective reality.

What it boils down to are "explanation models". There's no such thing as a dream or a lucid dream (or astral projection for that matter) - they are all explanation models designed to make sense of things.

If lucid and non-lucid dreams didn't exist, people wouldn't have them.  As for your next statement after that, now you are talking about something completely different.  It is an anthropological matter.  It is in our nature to give meaning to things.  Everything needs to have an ID and it forms part of communication - otherwise, there would be none.  Agree?

I do NOT have a problem with him, I have a problem with his phase theory. Hence I ask critical questions.
Why would I be jealous?
Ofcourse I know my own experiences... do you need someone else to tell you what you've experienced? If so how can they possibly know?

If you don't have a problem with him, then why tell him to get off his high horse?  Also, I asked you if you were jealous because that's how you were coming across to me.  By the way, I don't need someone else to tell me what I experience.  As I've said to you before, I simply agree with Michael Raduga because I've arrived at the same conclusions.  But so that we don't clash in our beliefs any longer, I will tell you now that from my personal experience, I've seen every indication that OOBEs and Lucid Dreams are the same thing.  Hence why I adopted the term Phase. 

Astral Projection, on the other hand, does not exist in my book.  It is a belief-centric term and not concerned with facts.  First, the word "astral" can be misleading.  Secondly, there is no evidence of an astral plane or that there is even an afterlife.  You will find that the term implies the existence of one straight away.

You don't find any assumptions like that with the Phase term.  This forum holds a pragmatic view, and, within this way of dealing with things, we acknowledge that the Phase state is still elusive.  What we can't do is accept baseless fairytales that comfort people...

If you understand what I type and understand that EVERY question someone ask is constructive criticism, you will see that I am very constructive.

Sure.  But you haven't been asking questions.  You've been making affirmations and insulting the Site Owner.  You even said it yourself that you'd probably get banned.  It doesn't sound like an expected constructive outcome to me.  Out of curiosity, what drove you to start your "constructive criticism"?

I did not ask you, you've made your point further up the page. I've read your view and I agree with the first part you write, but not the last.

Fair enough.

what's the difference between my beliefs and yours?

Mine are based on pragmatism.  Yours are based on assumptions from bias.  You talk about not needing someone to tell you what you experience and yet you use spiritualist and New Age terms like "astral" "spirits" and "souls".  That view sounds good to you and you have welcomed it wholeheartedly. 

I, on the other hand, have conducted my own experiments and arrived at the same conclusions as the ones in this site.  Until I see otherwise, there won't be any paradigm shifts.

I see you're very unexperienced... or very ignorant... or both

I'm not surprised that you see me this way. 

I suggest you wash your own floor before you try to wash someone else's.
Take a close look @ yourself my friend, you'll see what you claim I am.

And what would that be?

You are unexperienced and get "logical" answers from someone who claims they know something. That's how religions are made, that's how politics are made, and that's how sects are made. It is the standard manipulation sequence, followed by badmouthing everybody that ask critical questions...

Yes, sir! 

If you really want to go there; "Then how come me and so many others have arrived at the same conclusion as Michael" then you can also ask "how come so many people have different conclusion than me?" There are far more "astral projectors" and "oneronauts" than Phasers, you're outnumbered in your own logic.... How come so many more people are drawn to astral projection and lucid dreaming than the phase?

The idea of Astral Projection draws a lot of people because it is attractive and provides comfort for people.  It tells people there are spirits living in the astral plane and that we never die.  It's like a religion, really.  Just like you said in your previous statement.  That's how religions are made, remember? 

hahahaha, and the phase is not "new age mumbo jumbo"?

Erm...actually...no, it's not! 

The saltcube approach is what I have seen work best on both myself and people I know, and if you take a good look at saltcube and Michaels theory you will find many similarities...

Ok, so, if there are many similarities between this saltcube and Michael's view, then, why be so anti-Michael?

Since when was wikipedia considered a reliable source? If you belive everything you read there you will be disappointed...

You're right!  It's not always a reliable source and I never said I believe everything I read there.  I was just letting you know that this site is advertised there with the indication that it is pragmatic - which, on this occasion, the wiki guys were accurate.  I wanted to see your reaction at the knowledge of Raduga's name being mentioned there. 

I have yet to see ANY scientific proofs regarding the phase, can you please point me in the right direction?

LOL! "Scientific proofs"! 

Anyway, why worry about this?  You have your own experiences, remember?  Besides, if I showed you links about the scientific community's stance on this phenomenon, you wouldn't bother reading them.

And I wonder; what does PRAGMATIC mean to you?

Seriously? LOL!  I'll give you an example.  Michael Raduga is the most pragmatic person I know.  He bases his views on practicality and in this way he records what is true and observable to be true.  This is better than relying on theories, which, as you know, are inferior to conjecture and clearly not the way to go if you are looking for answers...especially when you are dealing with the Phase.

And remember...the Phase = OOBEs and Lucid Dreams, i.e. the same thing!  It's all the same! 

[NOVA]

I can assure you it is very much physical!  The apple tree is not dependent on the mind for it to exist physically.  If we are both dead, the tree will still be there.  Hence...objective reality.

There is no physical. No one dies.

Sorry can't agree with you here Summerlander

There is no apple tree.

[Summerlander]

[NOVA]

"Reality is a full-void. We experience what fills it because we are the void itself. Intrinsically, we are empty awareness." - Summerlander

[LucidDreaming]

We can see how knowledgeble Michael is, when he is not replying to Mr. DreamMaster.

[Summerlander]

Touche!

[DreamMaster]

Guys,  it's funny)
That's why I try to never talk about theories...

I think we should relax and be much more respectful to each other.

DreamMaster, I respect your point of view and don't care about this. Please, just give me the same

"And do not forget I could kill somebody who would dare to tell LD and OBE are the same (9-10 years ago)."

Is this a threath? or do I miss your point here?

It was a hint, that I had the same position as you do now...

If you're going to use this as an reason for your authority then you will encounter problems with the silva methode and the like, since they have been teaching their theories for many more years than you and have traind many more people than you...

Yes, they teach theories. I teach practice. I hate any theories

I suggest you climb down from your high horse and listen to critcs just as well as support. Your biggest critics can be your best suporter...

Give it to me. I like it. But I need critics that related to practice, but not for theories

Do you really claim that there is no difference between the experience of lucid dreaming and the experience of ap/oobe?

It's my opinion. It's my right to think so. What's the problem with you? Everybody may have different point of view and I never care about that... I care about your practice, results.

Please, get it finally

I've had countless AP/OOBE that lasted for hourse (physical time). The longest I've been away was more that 2h.

Are you sure you didn't lose your consciousness time to time while these experiences?)


Maybe 1 question from me?

Why OBE and LD practitioners use the same methods?

Thank you very much for your reply, Michael!

You ask a very good question;
"Why OBE and LD practitioners use the same methods?"

we could also include meditation - why OBE, LD, and meditation practitioners use the same methods?

I'd answer that with another question; why do you think you need to do some tecknique to "leave" your body?

Do you use techniques to drive your car or ride your bike?

or do you use different methodes when you watch tv?

Lighten up, mon - what's natural about methodes and teckniques?

Intend, chill out and let it happen - that's all I "do" and it ain't no methode 

I've had countless AP/OOBE that lasted for hourse (physical time). The longest I've been away was more that 2h.

Are you sure you didn't lose your consciousness time to time while these experiences?)

yes. I've had some where I can not say with 100% certainty that I did not loose consciousness, but several where I know for sure. 1 time I was "dead" for 45-60 minutes with 12 people as "vitneses". They can not testify for what I experieced, only that I was "gone" for a long time. Before my NDO I thought the same as you do, but after it my worldview turned up side down.

It's my opinion. It's my right to think so. What's the problem with you? Everybody may have different point of view and I never care about that... I care about your practice, results.

Please, get it fina

hehehe, what's the problem with you? hehehe
There's no problem with me, I only have problems with your labeling 
But there's no problem really, unless you want there to be

Ofcourse everybody has the right to have different opinions, but if you really are a pragmatic man I would think you'd like your theories tested and discussed... Open minded, you know...

Insted I get the impression that you are very dogmatic.
I admit that I get the impression that I am dogmatic too, I consider myself to be a dogmatic pragmatic man. I mean that either you are asleep and dream or aware and experiece.

Anywayz, - the phase or not the phase; it's all just a game, really

Enjoint m8

[dreamsrock]

coo-coo

[Summerlander]

You can say that again, dreamsrock! 

[Michael Raduga]

A few hours ago there were 60 people in front of me and half of them was in shock of my point of view (I may never mention about this, but they asked). When I'll see them tomorrow, half of them will get the phase. 50% of these people will think it's real OBE. Other 50% - LD while using the same methods... That's the problem. You may be sure in your position, when you're one of them, but you cannot, when you observe this situation thousands times.

[Summerlander]

I'd like to share how I see things.  The following, to me, are the most distinct states of mind.  At least that's how I categorise it these days:

Waking State:

Also known as wakefulness.  In this state, people perceive the physical realm.  An individual who is awake is conscious, self-aware, and there is realism of perception.  The environment is stable and there is no required effort to enter this state.  The perceived world seems to follow set rules, and, only on a quantum level, do things appear to be less logical and more uncertain.

Dream State:

This entails non-lucid dreams and falling asleep is all that is needed to enter this state.  Self-awareness is absent and the unconscious mind often rules over the conscious one.  The dreamer is immersed in plots and often detached from waking life memories.  The experience can be vivid or vague, and, despite the instability, the illogical is accepted as being logical and true.  Certain techniques can be employed to boost dream recall.

Phase State:

This entails out-of-body experiences (OOBEs or OBEs) and lucid dreams.  Both are one and the same as a practitioner of this state has the distinct sensation of being elsewhere other than the physical body.  This elusive state can be entered before, during, and after sleep.  Effort is required in order to enter the phase voluntarily, although, some experiences are induced involuntarily.  The practitioner is conscious and self-aware in what appears to be a reality of a mental nature which often emulates the waking state experience.  One perceives a realistic phantom reality that can surpass the quality of the waking world, and, although phase environments can appear stable, they can also transmute.  It is possible to slip into the dream state from here and vice versa.

[Jeff]

Hey everyone,

Sorry for butting in,but I can't help myself...LOL.

A few questions for those who believe in an objective physical reality:

I'm just curious,I don't wanna argue-I very much respect the experience and opinions of the practitioners here. We are all certainly entitled to our own opinions for sure ,I just really enjoy discussing with other practitioners.I am not threatened by any view point,and I don't think I have all of the answers-I was a materialist myself until only recently.

Also first I want to say,yes, practice is important and I appreciate MR's method and approach.However,I do believe theory is equally important because meaning is an integral part of conscious experience.

1.Do you believe that electro-chemical brain events (as characterized by mainstream science) generate all that is experienced in the phase?

2.Do electro-chemical brain events also constitute the experiencer of the percepts that are generated by electro-chemical events?

3.Do you think that electro-chemical events are equal to experience? (I'm not being snarky,but obviously we cannot show that electricity,chemicals and matter inherently possess the phenomenal qualities of waking experience or the phase.We can only experiment on ourselves and others and make correlations.)

4.If yes,do you think there is a neural correlate for every sight,sound,color,shape in the phase?

5.If yes to 4,then how to explain the use of those same neurons during other experiences,what might determine how they 'decide' to generate one pattern over another using the same substrate?

6.If no to 3 and 4 ,then do you believe the mind is an 'epiphenomenon' or 'emergent property' of electro-chemical events in brain matter?

7.If yes to 6 then 'where'  in space-time do you believe that conscious experience occurs if it is not equal to electro-chemical events ?

8.What is it that you believe makes brain matter superior to other nonconscious configurations of C,Na,N,S,K,etc..?

BTW,
To make myself clear,I agree that there are objective aspects of experience.But I think the term 'objective' is limited only to information that subjective observers can agree upon.Relativity and QM have proven this,so theory does matter IMO. Reality depends on the frame of reference of an observer (which can be nonconscious;but it too remains in probability describable by mathematical waves until it's result enters our frame of reference-and becomes an extension of mind),there is no objective time,space or matter.(matter is subject to length contraction and mass increase when accelerated )IMO any complete theory of what the phase 'is' should take this into account.Again,meaning is an integral part of conscious experience.

My hope is that phase practitioners will oneday compare data in light of the best theories science has to offer,without too much prejudice,and workout a good theory.

Sorry for the long post,I hope you guys respond. 

[Summerlander]

Dear Jeff,

Sure, theory is important and we can always discuss it here.  But this site is primarily about the facts that we can all agree upon.  A theory remains just that.  Some can be interesting but most are not substantial enough without something factual to back up their plausibility.

Meaning is indeed an integral part of the experience and it is our job to give meaning to things, otherwise, the perceived reality is just meaningless data.

1.Do you believe that electro-chemical brain events (as characterized by mainstream science) generate all that is experienced in the phase?

I believe that in the same way we perceive the waking world, we perceive the phase world.  What I won't do is claim to know what one or the other is, because, I simply do not know.

2.Do electro-chemical brain events also constitute the experiencer of the percepts that are generated by electro-chemical events?

I think we are like onions.  Strip away the layers and you are left with nothing.  There is no core.  There is no self.  Considering the complexity of the brain and the uncertainty of quantum mechanics, I can't help but think that individuality is an illusion and part of a conceptual reality.  Intrinsically, we are empty.  That's how immortal we are. 

To experience anything, we need to identify ourselves as being an organism.  This organism can have a brain which is used as a tool to control the body and perceive the surrounding environment.  We need the physicality to be sure that we exist because such reality appears to be a stable and so sure of itself.  If you leave a dirty mug on a coffee table, it will still be there next time you look at it unless someone else moves it.  The mug does not go away nor does it get washed by itself.  In the phase, it is a different story...

4.If yes,do you think there is a neural correlate for every sight,sound,color,shape in the phase?

I don't know about neural correlates but we definitely grow our brains and we can certainly improve them with a little effort.  I still can't see why certain environments in the phase can't be mind constructs from the memory of waking life experience.  Perhaps one correlate is reused time and again for an array of experiences. 

Perhaps the room replica that is experienced in a wake-induced phase is reliant upon certain synaptic connections that also play a role in experiencing the actual room.  The brain has already been exposed to something actual and can always rely on its memory and make alterations.  The memory of something actual will never be exactly the same but something like it (rarely the same anyway) just like ideas that emerge in the mind are seldom produced in physicality in their original form (take artists and their work for example).

All the thoughts we have could have been gathered from the moment we became conscious and self-aware and could have formed, overtime, a mental playdoh so to speak.  Hence, the imagination.  We could be nothing but supercomputers.  A combination of bits like "1001010011101" can represent a letter of the alphabet.  Likewise, a mechanism in the brain in all its complexity could represent consciousness (and thoughts could have a quantum mechanical nature). 

Either consciousness creates physical reality (including the brain) or the brain creates consciousness somehow.

7.If yes to 6 then 'where'  in space-time do you believe that conscious experience occurs if it is not equal to electro-chemical events ?

Read my signature. 

8.What is it that you believe makes brain matter superior to other nonconscious configurations of C,Na,N,S,K,etc..?

The brain, like a computer, could delete files and recycle the data.  The info would get reconfigured to suit the current surroundings.  And since the brain is a lot more than the computer that we use daily to save and share info, it isn't hard to imagine that it can exceed our expectations.  It could rely on quantum entanglement and superposition.  It can be so many things and the collapse forces it into something that is still amazing and consciously permanent until it deteriorates.

The connections in the brain are more numerous than all the stars in the local universe.  Its complexity is still misunderstood so we can't write off the brain just yet as a possible source for the phase reality.

[Jeff]

Hello Summerlander,
Thanks alot for the reply.I'm on the same page as you in many ways.

1.I agree,I don't know either.What I do know is that material reductionist views do not adequately explain some of my experiences-or 'qualia' for that matter.

2.A while back I would have agreed with you about the no self thing when I was taking in alot of eastern thought;but now I'm not so sure anymore. What is it that says it is not a self anyway ? Has an illusion caused you to state that there is no self ? I think the key may be in relationships-maybe there is no apparent self if there is no percept to relate to; but there seems to be a 'channel capacity' for one which has been quantified by physicist Evan Harris Walker.

To the contrary,I currently believe that 'the self' exists,but is in constant flux. In fact,the psyche can fracture into as many selves as needed,as evidenced by laboratory experiments in divided consciousness (Hilgard's 'Hidden Observer') ,multiple personality disorders and maybe some of the so called 'dream characters' we experience in the phase state of mind.

I totally agree with you on the identification statement and the control of environments-very true words.But I think this is part of what makes a self. Something of an interface maybe,but one that is transitory and evolving-adapting to situations.Selves seem to produce effects in the world, and many selves can effect one body differently. Yeh,I was skeptical about that too;but I have really been researching this-check this out for example!

http://www.nytimes.com/1988/06/28/scien ... wanted=all

4-8.Yes,I agree with parts of this too.On the neural correlates and memory:During waking hours we believe the brain models (somehow) what's 'out there' and stores memory of it's input.But in the phase state there is no waking world input being modeled so we conclude that the experience is 'self' generated- but how ? Are the neurons like little directors,screen writers,score composers,special effect artists,scenery,etc- like a minature flea circus or 3 pound flesh theater?

I'm sure that you would agree that the phase responds with intelligence and order.So these are not random firings going on,they are purposeful.Even if it turns out that the brain is a supercomputer,or generator of sorts,there is still an explanatory gap between it's firing and our experience I think.

Also,there is another,perhaps greater problem.The amazing complexity and comparisons to a computer that you mentioned make it problematic when you consider Godel's incompleteness theorem according to Roger Penrose and others.A sufficiently complex system,as I understand,will contradict it's own axioms and become undecidable. According to this idea,the brain as a classical computer should get stuck in undecidable self referencing loops-unable to produce the meaningful-purposeful outputs we experience in the phase.This leads some to believe that there are quantum processes at work in the brain,but decoherence theorists argue that this cannot be so.

This leads to research I've come across that says decoherence theorists are wrong,and it involves macroscopic quantum states in everyday waking physical reality.It turns out that the 'relational' and 'consistent histories' interpretations of QM allow for this while it easily unites QM and relativity.IMO-this might be extendable to the phase too! The only thing is this-one has to drop the idea of objective reality. All reality is frame dependent and histories must agree when information is shared between observers.This can be interpreted as being like the behavior of a MMORPG! Check this out,I know you'll like it:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/39063761/Nels ... ermination

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnIocQ8fbCk

And finally:
But what if one experiences something in the phase consciously unknown before hand in waking hours and is able to confirm the information in the waking world later? Sure,there's some slim chance that it is coincidental;but then what if it happens more than once?This has happened to me,so I am biased towards the idea of  consciousness being seperate from the brain.

If you get time,I highly recommend reading this book:

http://books.google.com/books?id=MrWESD ... &q&f=false

This was confirmed by the government of India and blows many ideas of materialism out of the water.Unfortunately,it contains alot of her religious bias though....

Jeff

[Summerlander]

Very interesting.  And I understand the problems you've pointed out.  I am interested in the multiple personalities phenomenon too.  It makes me wonder about dreams...

When we are lucid, we become fully conscious and self-aware while the environment appears to slow down or stop and the dream characters suddenly seem to lose life and often become mannequin-like.  On the other hand, in a non-lucid dream, we are often fully immersed in the plots and self-awareness is out the window while the environment is active and the dream characters have more life and distinct personalities.

Perhaps the metaphysical is where all ideas happen before probabilities manifest physically.  It could be quantum mechanical in nature.  When I was about seven, at a time when my parents were still married and my father was abusive to my mum on a daily basis, a series of strange occurrences took place.  Objects appeared to move by themselves and my room inexplicably caught fire once.  Soon, I was to black out and behave in a strange way that would freak both of my parents out.

My mother interpreted the events as "poltergeist activity" and "demonic possession", but, as a teenager I came across a theory in a scientific magazine with more mundane explanations about what I had experienced.  Perhaps my so-called possession would have been the onset of a multiple personality disorder.  There was no explanation for the objects moving and the fire but the magazine did mention something about mind over matter and households unconsciously manifesting this when there is a prolonged tension.  It also said that children tend to be the most affected by it.

The manifestation of the Self could have quantum origins and it happens because it is a possibility, because it can happen, because it will happen (based on the anarchic Principle).  But how it happens is a big mystery and I really don't know if it remains or disappears at death.  Perhaps the destruction of the brain means that all that hard work (growing the brain) has been destroyed and whatever constitutes us at the most intrinsic level has to start again (rebirth?), but there is no proof of this and these stories of reincarnation, although as evident as they seem, certainly aren't it.  We have to be careful with the media and its sensationalism.  Also, we must watch out for cryptomnesia and how much people have been exposed to or influenced/biased by.

The phase environments seem intelligent and often have structure, but then again, we have already been exposed to so much that we are probably clinging to a model of reality that we are so used to.

Btw, thank you for that Nelson synchronicity video, very interesting.  Most theories are interesting anyway. 

[Jeff]

Summerlander,
More good stuff.Interesting about your childhood,thanks for sharing.The fires and moving objects certainly defy any normal explaination of causality.

They say that one must develop MPD before a certain young age.If sufficient trauma is experienced ,and memories-personalities dissociate to form vertical amnesic barriers after this period of development,then one may get classified as having Dissociative Identity Disorder instead.

I'm thinking there are some parallels to be made with the phase,MPD-DID and Nelson's RED-and along with that,I'm thinking maybe dissociation is actually quite normal.For instance,in 'regular dreams' we often accept logic and memories that seem to have had a history of their own.It isn't until we 'wake up' that we realize that we dreamt and deem these memories false-this is a RED! But what of those memories? Were they fabricated on the spot and accepted or do they have an actual chain of history? I think that in some cases the later may be true.This would also be able to explain why I occasionally experience recurring phase environments and also have the experience of OBEing from a dream body already asleep in a bed in the phase.There is scientific laboratory evidence that we all have dissociated consciousness operating on a continuous basis outside of our ego awareness.Here is one source:
http://www.amazon.com/Divided-Conscious ... 0471396028

Maybe we have multiple dream selves in parallel on a continuous basis and perhaps Lucidity is actually an integration of memory chains-the history and logic of the waking world being the one we as an integrated whole tend to most associate with.What I mean is maybe entering the phase means integrating the 'waking' chain of memory with another dream self,while retaining memory upon awakening. Sudying the experience of multiples shows that they each do in fact have continuous experience in some cases.Though they appear to have one body in our consensus physical reality;from their perspective,they report spatial separation and a different bodily self image! Therapy for them seeks to integrate them into a whole.

But 'where' do they experience themselves? Maybe the phase state shares something in common here?This is where I think QM seems so useful.The nice thing about nelson's view seems to be that it retains what we take to be physical ,while at the same time allows the coexistence of a nonphysical mathematical-probablistic wave space,the 'fourier realm'-depending on the POV though. If mind also resides there, then this could also be that metaphysical space where ideas and probabilities manifest as you wrote.

I also wonder if our periods of nonlucidity and regular sleep are because our waking chains of memory are ,at these moments, diffuse among the other dream selves in the fourier space? I know it sounds a bit crazy but evidence from those who are hypnotically  susceptibile shows that they can sort of become malleable to the will of the hypnotizer-afterwards they may report a dreamilike experience if there is any memory.I dunno,I'm just going out on a limb with this stuff because of a few experiences I had that relate to death.

1.In one of my first Lucids,my grandfather actually roused me to awareness in the dream when he called on a telephone.He told me that he was calling to say goodbye.Just then there was a knock on the door and my girlfriend of the times mother woke me for a phone call.Sure enough I knew what it was about and said so before anything was spoken to me.

Turned out he was on his death bed at the time of the dream.He was intubated and sedated.He had had a heart attack and suffered some brain damage as I understand.

2.My other incident is here on page 39.One thing I didn't mention in the article is that I learned afterwards from my wife that he in fact used to dye his hair.

http://dreaminglucid.com/issues/LDE51.pdf

This stuff strongly leads me to believe that the brain is not all there is,but what death really represents,I don't know. LOL...maybe we get dissolved in the memory of the fourier realm,or integrated like one superoganism,which could explain possession as you mentioned.....It's fun to speculate.I really enjoy exploring the phase for answers.I think we should all compare data and do experiments!

Jeff

[Summerlander]

The nice thing about nelson's view seems to be that it retains what we take to be physical ,while at the same time allows the coexistence of a nonphysical mathematical-probablistic wave space,the 'fourier realm'-depending on the POV though. If mind also resides there, then this could also be that metaphysical space where ideas and probabilities manifest as you wrote.

That right there is exactly what I'm talking about.  And we, whatever we are, have that infinite scope to be whatever we want to be.  Perhaps the phase space, being the realm of the mind, is where all experience takes place - even the waking one (not just dreaming and phasing).

About the brain, I know what you are talking about.  Brain, mind and the nature of reality are elusive subjects indeed.  Perhaps the brain is an expression of consciousness, an idea which is still evolving, something so complex which came into being somehow.  Note that I said it is a mere expression of consciousness.  Consciousness has the infinite potential to express itself in many different ways.

Existence is a big circus and my head hurts at the moment thinking about all this. 

[NOVA]

Phew!!  Well I read it all. 

[Jeff]

  Totally agree! Elusive subject-the-most elusive there is!Yes,I like the brain as an expression of consciousness possibility myself too.And I do think it is reasonable.I have often thought that consciousness could be a primary force or attribute of the ultimate reality. Why not? Look at some of the other ad-hoc stuff out there like 'inflation fields', infinite parallel universes upon every subatomic event and 'strings' which can't be detected.The consciousness idea has less baggage IMO.

All I know for sure is that I f'n love the phase! I hope that physical death turns out to be something like it-only lucid though..: )

I'm thinking of asking the phase to simulate a NDE for me,but I haven't quite worked up the balls to yet..LOL I once got stuck in this red-black TV static-like space after doing alot of leberge style spinning-it actually scared the crap out of me! I couldn't wake up from it-I thought I had died! (I've also had some prolonged tunnel experiences too.) I think we can find answers in the phase;but I've learned to be careful with it too 

[Summerlander]

Anyway, to keep to the topic and a recap on things...

The phase state is a hybrid state which includes OOBEs and lucid dreams.  There is no separation but a perceived one.  In the phase, one always moves in mental space...nothing is actual even though it appears to be so.

Remember the brain scans showing activity on WEC (waking with eyes closed), REM (rapid eye Movement), and lucid (the phase state)?



Also, I found this site which I think is worth looking at:
http://lucidologia.blogspot.com/p/english.html

Here are some interesting points from Lucidologia: The Science of Lucid Dreaming website:

"Consciousness as awareness (phenomenological meaning) can be distinguished into three types. First type of awareness, the primary phenomenal experience of objects or events (cf. primary awareness) usually occurs during dreaming (Cicogna and Bosinelli 2001), at least in the form of a dream content (Posner and Rothbart 1998). According to Cicogna and Bosinelli (2001) the dreamer typically is aware of events and actions which take place in the dream, and that he participates in it, but also is aware of being himself (self-awareness), though many modifications are possible (e.g. awareness can be preserved only in respect to the feeling oneself expressed by the identification with other characters or objects, or as a representation of oneself as a passive observer of the dream scene). The third type of awareness, meta-awareness, is considered to be an awareness of having an awareness of the first type or, in other words, the awareness of having own thoughts and behavior. This type of awareness is usually not present during dreams, however, if meta-awareness is fully preserved then the dreamer can realize that he is dreaming, while the dream is in progress (Cicogna and Bosinelli 2001), which may result in lucid dreaming."

"A study of the left/right ratios of alpha activity during lucid dreaming indicated that the onset of lucidity is correlated with a decrease of alpha activity in the left parietal region. Decreased alpha activity over specific brain area is generally considered as an activation index of this cortical region, both in active wakefulness (Schupp et al. 1994) and mental imagery (Kaufman et al. 1990). This finding is consistent with a study investigating the distribution of brainwave activity during the periods before and after the onset of consciousness during a lucid dream. Among different frequency bands of EEG analyzed in this study, the most interesting results concerned the alpha band (8-12 Hz), where the activation of posterior left hemisphere (decreased alpha activity over this area) was recorded during the first 30 seconds of lucidity (LaBerge 1993)."

"Holzinger et al. (2006) suggest that the activation of the left parietal region during lucid dreaming is due to the fact that this region is considered to be engaged in semantic understanding of the meaning of words such as “This is a dreamâ€

[Jeff]

That is all very interesting,thanks for posting.I will checkout the links and see what I can learn.I'll see how my wild personal conjectures square up ,if at all,with their science....

The 'moving in mental space' idea is really a safe bet for sure-It's the mind-matter thing that is tough IMHO.And the "separation but a percieved one" -is really tricky too,I think.

About that:
What I mean is-from a materialist POV-they might say neurons are representing the objectively existing room,bed,and physical body with it's wieght and pressure on the bed.They would also be at the same time,internally generating, a whole second body 'within' another space(also created by nerve impulses) complete with sensations of separation.Both bodies are percieved at that moment,and then the 'physical' one is left behind-no longer represented.What I wonder is, why in the hell should this even happen? There is nothing like this during waking hour perceptions in which to model this upon! Think about it.

And then there's the floating and flying! Sure,we ride in cars and planes,we jump and move in elevators; but we experience nothing truly like phase events in waking life.If floating and flying are just assembled from the memory of objective physical movement,it is also really unclear to me as to why this should happen.What materialistic or evolutionary (from the dawkins or shermer view of evolution) purpose could this possibly serve?

And then there's the fact that we ,the observer,also supposedly made out of material neurons and electro-chemicals,never percieve the substrate.So there's supposedly this division of self and other,made by nerves that are no physically different from one another.Some represent percepts and some represent a self in one big self referencing loop.It just seems like crazy circular logic or something to me really.

Whether just brain matter or something 'spiritual' , what ever is 'behind the scenes' always remains transparent.( As Thomas Metzinger says) We don't 'see' our retinas or optic nerves.We don't 'hear' our ossicular chains or cochleas,etc.We never sense how percepts are integrated,assembled,bound and presented.

I'm not at all saying that studying the brain isn't useful or necessary ( I work in surgery and participate in many brain procedures actually-the Dr.s would think I've gone mad if they'd read this XD) It's just that I believe there's a bigger picture.There needs to be some causality beyond our little material picture.Check out this evidence:

http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/26421/

I do agree however that words like 'astral' aren't too helpful-even though if you think of it aside from it's baggage,it is really similar to 'mental space.'

Ok rant completed-will check the links with an open mind...LOL.Thanks for the conversation BTW.
Jeff

[Summerlander]

And then there's the floating and flying! Sure,we ride in cars and planes,we jump and move in elevators; but we experience nothing truly like phase events in waking life.If floating and flying are just assembled from the memory of objective physical movement,it is also really unclear to me as to why this should happen.What materialistic or evolutionary (from the dawkins or shermer view of evolution) purpose could this possibly serve?

Actually, you can remember past events from different perspectives and angles (including bird's eye view).  You can also remember things that happened to you from an observer perspective rather than a participant (hell, you can even see yourself reacting to the events in third person).

The impossible becomes possible in mental reality because the rules only exist if we expect them to.  It is a less constricted reality-perspective.  If we want, we can also see penguins flying or chickens growing teeth simply because we can.  This is where the imagination comes in.  Just like we can have sex with the gorgeous neighbour who is already married (without feeling guilty or causing trouble) and knock out Mike Tyson with a single blow.

Btw, most people have seen Superman or Peterpan fly, so, when we fly in dreams or in the phase, it is actually our idea of what that would be like.  Isn't it funny how when I fly in the phase I never experience wind or even the mildest breeze?

Also, there are no dusty surfaces in my mental abode in the phase.  I abhor dust.  When I hoover in waking life I can't help but cough.

[breadbassed]

I had a flying phase experience once where i could feel not only the wind, but the rain and the cold, it was so real...... then i woke up

[Jeff]

Yes,that is strange about memory.I've read that too.We can tend to remember things from a 'third person perspective' rather then from the way we had originally experienced.Some dreams are like this too,like watching a movie play out from a camera view,this amazes me to no end when I think of it. I had a recent phase experience in which my mind (ego) seemed to briefly merge with a sort of 'dream director.'

I posted it here on this great article by Ryan Hurd if you're interested:
http://dreamstudies.org/2011/07/11/is-l ... ng-natural

As for flying and realness: Like Breadbassed,I have also experienced wind rushing past my ears,rain,and temperature too.But I do get what you're saying ,and you make a good case-expectations and 'schemas' are very important.But IMHO this is part the story,not the whole thing.

Something behind the scenes chooses much more than our egos ever do. When we use a  'technique for finding an object' for example,we may will a person to be on the other side of a door.
When we then open the door,the fact is we didn't really decide what that person would be wearing,what colors,the dimension of the room,it's specific objects like tables and such-on and on.Yet we tell ourselves "I" made this or "my" subconscious did this and take ownership of the intelligence beyond our simple ego.

I have had phase experiences so deep that they (I feel crazy to say) seemed to strongly suggest that there are stable dream worlds accessible that contain sentient dream beings.Yes there are the dumb variety of DCs for sure;but at a good level of deepening I have run into completely intelligent 'other' 'people' that have given totally unexpected remarks and actions.

A couple examples:
I become lucid in a hallway and float up.A voice from behind me unexpectedly says "You're pretty good at that."I say "where are you when I'm not here?" He replies "I was wondering the same about you!" I go to shake his hand;he fist bumps me instead! He goes on to explain that he was in an RV accident and "BOOM! I found myself here!"......

After alot of repeated deepening by spinning and feeling textures,I find myself at a beach.I go to urinate by a resort area with a concert in progress.( sorry,kind of crude;but I thought "who cares-it's my luciddream" I actually wanted to see what would happen.. ) A face suddenly appears in the 'air' in front of me with an angry face-totally unexpected and contrary to my attitude of the moment.She points down at my foot.I look and see that I've stepped on some strange creature that scurries off when I lift my foot.A total surprise.After a while of being very disruptive some 'DCs' say to each other nearby "what are we gonna do with him?" Next thing I know,against my will and intention I find myself seeing dreamlike images and then wake-like I was bounced or something!

And then there's other,seemingly stable, places with amazing skyscrapers,novel modes of transportation and so on for example.Stuff I've never consciously imagined.Landscapes with odd colors and plants,on and on.

I guess my point is that yes,our expectations and beliefs matter;but they only make an impression on something behind the scenes that may or may not incorporate them into some 'external' experience.IMHO we do not call the shots the way we might think we do.It is this something that has a greater portion of control.And sometimes to me, saying it's 'just my subconscious' or 'it's the way the brain works' or something like that,just seems to not give due justice.

[Jeff]

NDE of a Neuroscientist

http://nhneneardeath.ning.com/video/nea ... nce-of-a-1

Another interesting page:
http://www.iands.org/news/news/front-page-news.html

(I try to ignore the loaded terms like 'heaven' and 'angels' and acknowledge that something is going on which brain science doesn't explain)

[Summerlander]

Nice experience by that neuroscientist.  That was some traumatic phase entry!  Beware of meningitis and other rare forms of the disease.  His endorphins must've kicked in big time.  I also liked hearing Morgan Freeman's voice. 

[Jeff]

Summerlander,
"Through the Wormhole" kicks ass,no ?

About the NDE of Eben Alexander:Notice the very important point that his neocortex was 'trashed.' This fact seems to make it difficult to maintain the idea that his brain -in and of itself- was the sole generator of this experience. As he said,there could of been no metabolic activity there due to the presence of the bacteria.Also note that he,a Harvard expert,was unable to model his experience on what remained functional of his brain. (appeal to authority argument...LOL)


Back to the point of this thread,there are actually some scientific ideas that 'somewhere' there may exist other frames of reality.These appeal to me because they do not seem to resort to religious belief or new agey conjectures.I'm not saying they are proven true though,but I do lean toward them myself because of personal experiences.(I just read in another thread that you too have had such interesting experiences as well.) I think there is no doubt that there is an important role for the brain ;but it may turn out that the brain is only necessary for this phase of existence -which we may mistakenly think of as absolute and all there is.


There is the logically consistent scientific hypothesis which holds the possibility of the brain as being a kind of transmitter-reciever.
http://www.newdualism.org/papers/R.Collins/EC-PEC.htm

http://www.amazon.com/Soul-Hypothesis-I ... 1441152245

(I'm not so keen on this myself,but it seems sound.In this one,the brain provides the energy for mind. Perhaps after this energy source is depleted at death,the mind may come to rely upon some other source or process..?)

Then there are nondualistic views such as the 'extended mind.' I think this theory may 'extended' to what we may call the 'astral' out of want for a better or more scientific term.

There is good reason to take this seriously based on evidence from brain science.For instance:A special pair of glasses were made with cameras mounted  on them.The image is transferred to a device placed on the blind person's patch of skin on the thigh.This device uses very fine needles to reconstruct the image in the form of tactile sensory input which then goes to sensory nuerons in the parietal cortex as I remember.

Within hours the subject is able to 'see' and navigate their environment,even play catch with a ball! These nuerons were never a functional part of 'seeing' as they had been used for tactile stimulus only-not being a part of one of the visual cortices.

This suggests that brain cells specialize not because of their locality in a particular brain module within a closed loop of causality confined in the skull;but because these cells and brain modules have a specific relationship with their environment beyond the bounds of the skull.They are plastic,and their functionality is in part due to the relationships and contexts that require an 'outside' world.

I think it's possible that when we enter the phase with techniques,we may be using skills and tools which let us 'extend' our minds into another aspect of reality beyond the normally percieved band of our waking 'physical' environment.Since there is evidence that percepts involve an environmental component ,I see no reason not to take seriously the idea that we may 'couple' with another environment in the phase-perhaps even one of 'dark matter'- who really knows? Maybe the world 'out there' is part of the subconscious mind. Maybe there is only minds within MINDs even....

Gibson's theory of direct perception:
http://www.users.totalise.co.uk/~kbroom ... gibson.htm

Here's a really good talk on the extended mind if you're interested:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=af3Vq-C1 ... ideo_title

[Summerlander]

About the NDE of Eben Alexander:Notice the very important point that his neocortex was 'trashed.' This fact seems to make it difficult to maintain the idea that his brain -in and of itself- was the sole generator of this experience.

Here's a logical rebuttal: makes it difficult but not impossible.

As he said,there could of been no metabolic activity there due to the presence of the bacteria.Also note that he,a Harvard expert,was unable to model his experience on what remained functional of his brain. (appeal to authority argument...LOL)

He may be an expert but he doesn't know everything about the brain.  Let's not forget that brief electrical bursts have been observed in the brains of the truly dead.  Some posited that the soul was leaving the body at that point.  Others took it as a sign that the brain was trying to reboot in a last attempt to save the organism from death.

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be a pain, I just want to remind people that nothing is concretely proven yet.