Are OBE, astral and lucid dreaming the same?

[Michael Raduga]

If you think OBE, the phase, astral projection, and lucid dreaming are not the same, please explain why

If you have no experience and just read about this - your words mean zero

Do not forget to explan the difference between techniques to achieve all of that and why OBE and LD practitioners use the same methods

[breadbassed]

I have had loads of lucid dreams and a few OBE's, from my experience so far they dont seem quite the same. I think there is a lower level of 'consciousness' while lucid but obes seem to come with complete awareness, like being awake. The main difference to me is that any thought of your physical body in an OBE bring you back to it, but this has never happened to me in a lucid dream, and i've tried.

[wiii]

My opinion is that they are all the same...as long as you controll  and feel all your senses within your head ,and not in reality and you are as little aware that you are not doing this in real world you are in the phase!
I think more awareness in the phase is a deeper phase!And it takes practice,to master it,and stay there as long as you will!

[Michael Raduga]

wiii is right
More over, I know many people who can say exact opposite things about LD/OBE:

I think there is a lower level of 'consciousness' while lucid but obes seem to come with complete awareness, like being awake. The main difference to me is that any thought of your physical body in an OBE bring you back to it, but this has never happened to me in a lucid dream, and i've tried.

[Rudolph]

OBE is a "state" of awareness.

Astral is a destination. I think many people who get OBE just a few times might never make it into the astral realm/level.

I think Lucid Dreaming is a "High Illusion" OBE.

When I first exit the body I can see the earth and surroundings. When I cross the 'portal' and enter the astral realm it feels a little different. They are two different kinds of reality/phases.

Lucid Dreaming can be very high illusion or very high reality. An OBE can start out high reality and dissolve into a more illussion-type lucid dream.

I don't think a hard cutoff type distinction can be made. It is more like a continuum.

[breadbassed]

Yeah im starting to think what you say is true, more experience with OBE's has shown that they can easily become lucid dreams. There is only one time i had an OBE that was different to any others though, maybe it was the most 'in the phase' i have been, it only lasted seconds but was the most amazing phase experience i've had because it felt more real than any others.

[Michael Raduga]

When I cross the 'portal' and enter the astral realm it feels a little different. They are two different kinds of reality/phases.

It is possible to create in the phase any "portals", "worlds", properties and feelings. It may look like a real OBE, astral world, etc. It is property of the phase space. I'm not sure we should use different names for all this stuff.

[Rudolph]

Yes, it can all be just imagination and fantasy like a dream does only that it takes on much more realistic properties than a dream. But I recall one realm I crossed into had characteristics that match exactly what I saw later on in someone else's writings.

I had one *very* unusual experience about a year ago where I went to a specific place that I know the name of (in the 'astral' plane) and I can describe it in detail. I searched the internet and I could find nothing else with that name. But I know what to look for and one day I might find someone else who also visited that place.

I did read one story from a man who claimed to be able to 'phase' at will and he described a place with one certain detail that exactly matched something very unusual that I saw there. He also described an activity that was going on there. It was an extremely unusual detail and I wish he had written more.

[Michael Raduga]

Just be very cautious in your theories. 10 years ago I got a lot of problems because it is not a place where you can believe to your eyes and sensations.

[Ssergiu]

I think they are the same process but different sensations.
- = the awareness.

---D---LD---SP-AP/OOBE.

D - dream
This is how I describe it. The awarer or conscious you become in your dream, the further you go through that line. I am sure about this cause when I have lucid dreams if I become "too aware" I immediately go in Sleep paralysis and then OOBE. It depends on how aware you are. Obviously, it also feels different. When you are in AP or OOBe stage you feel like in reality. I also thing that when you are in SP you are already "out". I can't stay much in LD's cause I feel like my mind is locked in a box and I am about to break out. 

[Summerlander]

The Phase = OOBE/AP/LD

It's all the same! Period! The different terms used were made up by us for descriptive purposes. Using different terms enables up to communicate the different degrees of awareness and the way in which such state is entered.

OOBEs might as well be projections into fairly accurate simulations of the real world. AP is usually preceded by the sensation of separating from one's body to encounter an inaccurate replica of the physical environment created from expectation.

In LDs, the "expectation" environment is skipped as there is no sensation of separating from the body. The only sensation one gets from being disassociated from the physical is when interaction is ongoing in dreamland.

Once again, it is all the same. It's the same environment despite whatever distinctions you might think there are. In fact, why bother knowing. Just regard the "data" perceived in such a state. It is the Phase. nothing more. Just the Phase.

[dreamsrock]

Aaaamen!  I agree

[Rudolph]

It is only all the same if you lack discrimination.

This is like saying purple = green= red.

As I said earlier ... it is a continuum. It may all be "light" but there is differentiating detail in the color that is real and is meaningful.

[Michael Raduga]

Anyway, the most distracting thing for me is that phase practitioners used to communicate on different sites (devoted to AP, OBE or LD). However, not less than 1/4 of them suspect that it all may be very close.

[Summerlander]

It is only all the same if you lack discrimination.

This is like saying purple = green= red.

As I said earlier ... it is a continuum. It may all be "light" but there is differentiating detail in the color that is real and is meaningful.

Maybe they are different states of consciousness, but, different states of consciousness nonetheless. These days I'm more concerned with what I can do with it and the type of information the Phase can provide for me. But good analogy and perspective, Rudy!

[Phasing101]

This I feel will be the perfect place for my first post.

Sorry Michael for the direct e-mail, but I had only just watched the first video of the site and decided to get into contact before reading more about your own understanding of the concepts. I am more interested in seeing your own experiences.

Now for an actual reply to the thread question; Is OBE, Astral Projection and Lucid Dreaming all the same?

With no explanation, straight to the point - Yes.

If explained - technically no, they are achieved through different points of consciousness and therefore are each their own field of study.


I have experienced many different forms of consciousness elevation and have categorized them roughly as so:

OBE - Is best described as a non-controlled version of CRV or in some NDOBE (Near-Death Out-of-Body Experience) can slip into the Astral State, which will be described later. This happens mostly while someone loses consciousness but their body is moving in the process, this creates the sensation of falling within your brain and body. This is supposed to wake you up, but if you are blacked out or on the verge of death there is no waking up. You then through how our consciousness system works already, wake up with our other perceptions.

CRV - Known as Controlled Remote Viewing, is a process that uses elements of Astral Projection and meditation. While being in a state of meditative calm and bliss, you exit your body with your senses. This is possible because your mind is no longer using it's normal function of say "skin sensation" for example, you are cutting it out of your conscious process. This creates more "bandwidth" we'll call it to be able to enhance and speed up your signal. This signal is what Astral Projection is based off of. The signal will be described more in Astral Projecting with 'energy'. So, CRV is in-short, Astral Projecting while being awake, and instead of projecting your whole self AND your senses, you are only projecting your senses as a part of yourself. This means you can project yourself to a location and relay information real-time, as you are still awake and conscious, you are only controlling your body & mind through meditation.

Lucid Dreaming - Lucid Dreaming is hard to pinpoint for one issue; the persons experience, willpower, and control. I say this because if someone is having an OBE or checking out a place with CRV even Astral Projection, if they do not have enough control to stay focused within that point of existence, they may start to "mold reality" around them, thus creating a Lucid Dream around them without knowing. This means that this dream reality that is being created and held together by your thought is actually manipulating Astral Space around your origin of thought. This is where it is hard to pinpoint, because with my own experience you can share a Lucid Dream with someone by Astral Projecting together and one creating the dream around the other, thus sharing a dream. But I can also create a "blank reality" and add to it within my own mind, using my mind as a point in space. This is a completely created/generated world created by my mind for entertainment or training. In my experience I don't have "random dreams" I have only Lucid Dreams or Astral Project when I sleep. But, I've also had experiences where I had created a reality within my mind and then other astral projectors had then entered that Lucid Reality which I ended up keeping held together to describe and show how all this works, in real-time by experiencing it.

"The Phase" - Is the Astral Dimension, it is best understood as the left-over energy of everything in existence. Further understood as forms of energy expressed through time. This is able to be possible by how matter is in existence, ie. polarity and frequency. Polarity is roughly understood as -1/+1 or black/white, also through Karma as Yin & Yang. Frequency can be broken down to roughly, speed/vibration/movement. When an object has polarity it's field of energy and movement creates relative time around the object. Thus creating relative time, understood through mathematics by Albert Einstein. My understanding is breaking it down scientifically using philosophical meta-physics principals based off of research and experience.

Astral Projecting - Connects them all, which is why the short and quick answer is YES, they are all the same, but yet they are still different. As all of them are dependent on the users experience and skill at each technique. Some "phase" into each other, which makes the experience inaccurate and therefore only good to serve as a learning tool. Projecting can shortly be described as traveling through "The Phase". This is possible because every cell in our body is intelligent, making us a collection of living intelligence, our cells and micro-organisms both sustain us and give us life, but it is our brain that controls them all. Since we could then be understood to hold energy throughout our entire body we then continuously produce this energy, which moves as understood, at half the speed of light (or nearly that), coupled with having next to no mass being pure energy means it can move nearly the speed of light. Our brain, then tells all of this energy throughout our body what to do when to do it, but instead of moving your muscle, you teach yourself how to move your energy. Though what needs to be understood with this concept, is that at all times we are bleeding our own energy out into the air and Earth. This is described as our Aura. This field consists of our emotional and mental energies which is expressed with color, which is a frequency of light, but also understood as vibration frequency (sound). This expands into much more, which is highly advanced forms of understanding your own perceptions.


So, that is my opinion, my understanding (roughly) and I would like to see what people would have to say about it. I can go into more detail about any part of everything I mentioned. I might not know everything about "The Phase" but I know A LOT, and anything I don't know I can then learn from it.

Until next-time,

Phasing101

[JorgeLTE]

Man...

Is this a poll of opinions or a classroom?

[LucidDreaming]

Man...

Is this a poll of opinions or a classroom?

And everything is just very complicated stuff.

[Blackbumper]

I find this fascinating.

a couple of points i've noticed from my clumsy attempts at both OBE and lucid dreaming.

1. I can convert a lucid dream into a OBE by doing an exit technique and then notice a slight difference in awareness and experience of both.

2. In a Lucid dream i tend to interact with my surroundings in a 'normal' way, by walking, running etc. (Normal gravity based movements) However if i've had an exit or Lucid dream conversion, i float around and seem to be a point of awareness instead of a something more 'human'.

However, i get often blends of the two, where i feel completely lucid, yet still float.

go figure.

[Summerlander]

Actually, anything that gives you the sensation that you are not laying in bed can be regarded as an OOBE.  Notice that the term is pragmatic.  It does not affirm that one really leaves the body, it merely indicates that it is an EXPERIENCE.

OOBE = Out-of-body EXPERIENCE

In a lucid dream (and even the non-lucid ones for that matter), your awareness appears to be focusing elsewhere other than your physical body.

The astral projection term was made redundant by me because it is just misleading as projection experiences have nothing to do with "astral/celestial bodies" like stars and planets.  The world encountered is closer to the waking world than anything else and no different to a lucid dream (I don't care if people say it's different because it isn't - it is the same realm but we are the ones who perceive it in various degrees of awareness).

To conclude, the term Phase is very appropriate. To me it is all the same in three years of experience.  There is no difference.  It appears that one enters the realm of thoughts upon a separation from the body.  You enter the Phase, a different state of consciousness...period.

[Blackbumper]

Thanks Summerland, i'm very new to this but i love exploring consciousness as it's something i can do every minute of the day. (and it's free)

I've decided that whenever i find myself in a situation where i'm conscious and can have conscious awareness to say 'I'm doing this or i'm here..." then it's just another aspect of my experience. Ie the Phase. Shift in vibration, attention etc.

And i can do that in so called real life, OBE and Lucid dreaming. So it's all just other aspects of my awareness.

i think.

[Jay Jonathan]

Yes they have many names but I believe they all mean the same thing. The only difference I can think of would be the way of entry.

Also, as with any dream, lucid or otherwise, it happens entirely within your mind. Consciousness cannot be detached from the brain.

I can infer no supernatural basis for my phase experiences. Some people try to tie nonsense with the phase and I find that offensive. It's even worse when they try to make it look like some secret art or supernatural ability that only the "chosen ones" can access or that they receive divine messages from it.

[Michael Raduga]

I can infer no supernatural basis for my phase experiences. Some people try to tie nonsense with the phase and I find that offensive. It's even worse when they try to make it look like some secret art or supernatural ability that only the "chosen ones" can access or that they receive divine messages from it.

Exactly about me when I was 15-17 yo)

[arqmeister]

I think its all about your perspective. If you believe in astral or heavin, you will experience your belief system in your phaise experiences. Its pretty aragant in my oppinion to say that someone is right or wrong in there viewpoints on the phaise. If someone thinks its an astral projection, so what. I think its wrong to rip people apart just because you haven't experienced what they have. It gets under my skin when people try to throw there apparent superority on a matter like this. MR Raduga is great because he leaves it an open ended box so to speak. Everyone can take from there own beliefs and experiences what they will. Period.

[NOVA]

I agree with you Summerlander.

Anyway who cares what it is or isn't?

I' m just keen to get on with it and enjoy the experience.

[Summerlander]

Me too! 

[DreamMaster]

Michael:

In my original post you write:

"And do not forget I could kill somebody who would dare to tell LD and OBE are the same (9-10 years ago)."

Is this a threath? or do I miss your point here?

If I understand your reply correctly your argument for "being right" is this claim:
"For those who think it's not enough to know this topic even by teaching thousands people in REAL world, we have a popular thread to discuss this: http://obe4u.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=9"

So teaching people to do something automatically make you an expert that knows everything?
I respectfully dissagree. It doesn't proove anything in my book.
If you're going to use this as an reason for your authority then you will encounter problems with the silva methode and the like, since they have been teaching their theories for many more years than you and have traind many more people than you...

I suggest you climb down from your high horse and listen to critcs just as well as support. Your biggest critics can be your best suporter...

Do you really claim that there is no difference between the experience of lucid dreaming and the experience of ap/oobe?

If you do try this experience:
In every phase experience you have the rest of this year; take a close look at your hand.
You will notice differences, but it will take long with the phase theory.

Instead you can get faster results if you do a lucid dream (and look @ your hands) on one day and an astral projection on another day. You WILL spot a HUGE difference!

You claim it is "impossible" (or very hard) to stay in the phase for more than 20 minutes and say this is due to the REM period...
I've had countless AP/OOBE that lasted for hourse (physical time). The longest I've been away was more that 2h. This is a good indication that you're in the "dream world" and not in "the astral" (why else is REM a factor?)

There are distinct differences in the enviroment and the people/beings you meet in the astral and in dreams. The astral is VERY solid (feels MUCH more solid than this physical plane) and the dream is NOT.

I don't care how many people you've thought, I care about personal experience. From what you write I can see that you are an experience lucid dreamer, but I doubt you're as experienced in oobe/ap due to the fact that you don't know the difference and use cheep manipulation techniques to try to shut me up.

[Summerlander]

Michael:

In my original post you write:

"And do not forget I could kill somebody who would dare to tell LD and OBE are the same (9-10 years ago)."

Is this a threath? or do I miss your point here?

It's not a threat. You just missed the point.

So teaching people to do something automatically make you an expert that knows everything?

He's a teacher.  And he has not claimed to know everything.  You did.  You clearly have a problem with him.  what is it? Jealousy?

I suggest you climb down from your high horse and listen to critcs just as well as support. Your biggest critics can be your best suporter...

Constructive criticism...yes.  But nothing you say is constructive, is it?

Do you really claim that there is no difference between the experience of lucid dreaming and the experience of ap/oobe?

There is no difference.  I'm claiming it.

You WILL spot a HUGE difference!

You only see a huge difference if you believe that there is one.  This is simply from belief.  You are manifesting your expectations because you refuse to look at the phenomenon from different angles.  You are holding on to something for dear life because you like it and you press it against your heart for comfort.

I've had countless AP/OOBE that lasted for hourse (physical time). The longest I've been away was more that 2h.

Dubious. 

There are distinct differences in the enviroment and the people/beings you meet in the astral and in dreams. The astral is VERY solid (feels MUCH more solid than this physical plane) and the dream is NOT.

Erroneous belief.  Such beliefs and superstitions come from different degrees of Phase depth.  You are clearly in need of practice, my friend.  I suggest you read SOBT carefully.

I don't care how many people you've thought, I care about personal experience. From what you write I can see that you are an experience lucid dreamer, but I doubt you're as experienced in oobe/ap due to the fact that you don't know the difference and use cheep manipulation techniques to try to shut me up.

Then how comes me and many others have arrived at the same conclusion as Michael Raduga?  If you like the New Age crap I suggest you go over to Astral Viewers, Astral Dynamics or Spiritual forums, please. 

- This is a Forum that considers facts only!  Check wikipedia on Forums/sites about OOBE and you will find that this one is under the PRAGMATIC label. 

[DreamMaster]

Thanxx for your reply Summerlander.

There's no such thing as objective reality, each and every one of us interpret reality in our own unique and different way based on belief. We like to go around and think that we know many things, but we don't - we believe.

What it boils down to are "explanation models". There's no such thing as a dream or a lucid dream (or astral projection for that matter) - they are all explanation models designed to make sense of things.

Now, let me comment on your comments, cause you are way of in your assumptions and claims:

"He's a teacher.  And he has not claimed to know everything.  You did.  You clearly have a problem with him.  what is it? Jealousy?"

You obviously don't know much about linguistics.
I do NOT have a problem with him, I have a problem with his phase theory. Hence I ask critical questions.
Why would I be jealous?
Ofcourse I know my own experiences... do you need someone else to tell you what you've experienced? If so how can they possibly know?


"Constructive criticism...yes.  But nothing you say is constructive, is it?"

Well, you see what you think you see, not what I type. If you don't find my writing constructive you look at this as something where someone is right and someone is wrong. If you understand what I type and understand that EVERY question someone ask is constructive criticism, you will see that I am very constructive. It depends on where your focus is what you see and what you see not.

"There is no difference.  I'm claiming it."

I did not ask you, you've made your point further up the page. I've read your view and I agree with the first part you write, but not the last.

"You only see a huge difference if you believe that there is one.  This is simply from belief.  You are manifesting your expectations because you refuse to look at the phenomenon from different angles.  You are holding on to something for dear life because you like it and you press it against your heart for comfort."

And you don't see what you see based on your beliefs?
What a bunch of crap! Seriously, what's the difference between my beliefs and yours?
They are both beliefs and non of them can be proven. I keep beliefs that has practical value and discard those who don't. The phase belief doesn't fit with my experiences so I ask questions to see if I've missed something or if this explanation model is garbage.

"Dubious"

I see you're very unexperienced... or very ignorant... or both

"Erroneous belief.  Such beliefs and superstitions come from different degrees of Phase depth.  You are clearly in need of practice, my friend.  I suggest you read SOBT carefully."

Hahahaha, who made you the author of beliefs?
I suggest you wash your own floor before you try to wash someone else's.
Take a close look @ yourself my friend, you'll see what you claim I am.

"Then how comes me and many others have arrived at the same conclusion as Michael Raduga?"

You are unexperienced and get "logical" answers from someone who claims they know something. That's how religions are made, that's how politics are made, and that's how sects are made. It is the standard manipulation sequence, followed by badmouthing everybody that ask critical questions...

If you really want to go there; "Then how come me and so many others have arrived at the same conclusion as Michael" then you can also ask "how come so many people have different conclusion than me?" There are far more "astral projectors" and "oneronauts" than Phasers, you're outnumbered in your own logic.... How come so many more people are drawn to astral projection and lucid dreaming than the phase?

"If you like the New Age crap I suggest you go over to Astral Viewers, Astral Dynamics or Spiritual forums, please."

hahahaha, and the phase is not "new age mumbo jumbo"?
It sure is!

I don't belong to any belief system, neither new age mumbo jumbo, astral dynamics or spiritual forums - I only belong to my own experiences. The saltcube approach is what I have seen work best on both myself and people I know, and if you take a good look at saltcube and Michaels theory you will find many similarities...

This is a Forum that considers facts only!  Check wikipedia on Forums/sites about OOBE and you will find that this one is under the PRAGMATIC label.

You can't seriously say that you consider facts only, when everything you have written in your reply is based on your assumptions about me! Your actions show otherwise...
Since when was wikipedia considered a reliable source? If you belive everything you read there you will be disappointed...

I have yet to see ANY scientific proofs regarding the phase, can you please point me in the right direction?

And I wonder; what does PRAGMATIC mean to you?

[NOVA]

Dreamaster.

I see a person here who needs lots of love and understanding.

I can't speak for anyone else but myself.  I love you and are a wonderful person.  With lots of knowledge and experience.

Thank you for your input.

If you wish learn some more stay.

If you don't move on.

Lots of love and hugs for you.