Some of the posters may enjoy hearing this interview with Will Buhlman, a few weeks back. He offers a nice 'easy on the ears' perspective. Not a lot of belief system baggage. He's been an OBEster for about 4 decades now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahk7pOrOvuE
Re: Will Buhlman (OBEster) interview
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Summerlander
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Re: Will Buhlman (OBEster) interview
The interview seems a little biased by Spiritualist and New Age views with the promotion of wrong assumptions in relation to quantum theory. There is no mention of how the latter has helped us technologically. Also, the term non-physical doesn't sit well...
The term "non-physical" is flawed. If there is an afterlife, it is more likely to be part of the physical reality than anything else, and this may well involve hidden dimensions. I often imagine that thoughts are part of another frequency of reality yet to be discovered by science. We may be in a similar situation that we were before when we thought that what we heard was all there was in terms of sound waves. Now we know that isn't true because new gadgets have revealed to us the reality of ultrasonic frequencies beyond the range of human hearing.
Could the realm of thoughts be a frequency of reality yet to be technologically detected? Is this the realm we visit when we have lucid dreams? Is consciousness quantum mechanical in nature? It sounds feasible to me when the apparent nature of dreams is closer to "quantum logic" than human logic.
His attempt to differentiate between OBEs and lucid dreams using his analogy is also very poor. What he's just described, unknowingly, is that there are different degrees to lucidity and has not, in any way, shown in clear terms, two distinct experiences.
Here is a relevant excerpt from a reliable source of information:
"During a WILD, or sleep paralysis, the awake and alert mind keeps up its good work of showing us the world it expects is out there -- although it can no longer sense it. So, then we are in a mental-dream-world. Possibly we feel the cessation of the sensation of gravity as that part of sensory input shuts down, and then feel that we are suddenly lighter and float up, rising from the place where we know our real body to be lying still. The room around us looks about the same, because that is our brain's best guess about where we are. If we did not know that we had just fallen asleep, we might well think that we were awake, still in touch with the physical world, and that something mighty
strange was happening -- a departure of the mind from the physical body! The unusual feeling of leaving the body is exciting and alarming. This, combined with the realistic imagery of the bedroom is enough to account for the conviction of many OBE experients' that "it was too real to be a dream." Dreams, too, can be astonishingly real, especially if you are attending to their realness. Usually, we pass through our dreams without thinking much about them, and upon awakening remember little of them. Hence, they seem "unreal." But waking life is also like that -- our memory for a typical, mundane day is flat and lacking in detail. It is only the novel, exciting, or frightening events that leave vivid impressions. If we stop what we are doing, we can look around and say, "Yes, this world looks solid and real." But, if you look back and try to recall, for instance, brushing
your teeth this morning, your memory is likely to be vague and not very life-like. Contrast this to a past event that excited or alarmed you, which is likely to seem much more "real" in retrospect.
Lucid dreamers often comment to themselves in dreams, "I know this is a dream, but it all seems so incredibly real!" All this goes to show that the feeling that an event is real does not mean that it is happening in the physical world that we all share when we are awake. This is not to deny that that inner experiences are real, in that they have deeply profound effects on our lives. However, as lucid dreaming so amply demonstrates, we can learn to distinguish between our personal dreams and events in the consensus dream we call physical reality. When we do, we find that what we thought was one thing -- the waking
world -- is actually another -- a dream.
Proof that some or even most OBEs are dreams is not enough to allow us to say that a genuine OBE is impossible. However, in the interests of lucidity, if you have an OBE, why not test to see if the OBE-world passes the reality test? Is the room you are in the one you are actually sleeping in? If you have left your body, where is it? Do things change when you are not looking at them (or when you are)? Can you read something twice and have it remain the same on both readings? If any of your questions and investigations leave you doubting that you are in the physical world, is it not logical to believe you are dreaming?
Another point to consider is that a dream doesn't always have to happen in REM sleep. Most do, but there are probably quite a few other conditions in which people can lose touch with sensory experience and enter a mental world. Some such states that we know of are hypnotic trance, anesthesia, and sensory isolation. OBEs have been reported from these states (Nash et al., 1984; Olson, 1988). Thus, the argument that an OBE cannot be
a dream because the experient wasn't asleep doesn't hold water."
http://www.lucidity.com/NL32.OBEandLD.html
On spirits, there is not a shred of good or reliable evidence out there. Science hasn't detected anything like that either. What would a spirit be made of when we can't even find evidence of a "self" in the brain or anywhere else in the body? Please note that, just because I say I don't believe in spirits doesn't mean I rule out the afterlife hypothesis. I'll explain why...
There may be an afterlife - but, if that's the case - it seems more probable that we die, become unconscious, and re-emerge as another lifeform with no recollection of the previous life. We'd start from scratch, empty-minded, like a baby, and thus consciousness perpetuates the mystery of life and death.
In my theory (which I believe is the strongest one - and I hope I'm not being presumptuous here), there is no spirit that leaves the body and roams free to reincarnate at a later stage. No. There is no need for this and this scenario is not evident. There is only the universe experiencing itself through us. We are the universe observing itself. When a being dies an idea has expired in the anthropological perspective of conceptual reality.
Intrinsically, our awareness is the same. There is only one awareness emerging through different organisms or physical systems. In the end, the dying being is only returning to the pre-birth state and the universe may pop its awareness back into existence. Like the subatomic particles in the purest of vacuums! It might even take a million years for the universe to pop you back into being after death... from your perspective, the passage of such a period of time never was if during it you were absent from life.
If I'm wrong about spirits then I will hold my hands up, but, as you said, and I agree, they will be part of a physical system. There is no such thing as "non-physical" as the term is somewhat oxymoronic. The metaphysical term is more acceptable but never pertaining to anything actual, and if it doesn't really act it cannot affect the physicality of existent systems in any way. You see where I'm coming from?
Meanwhile, as I have stated before, the same "mental playdoh" that makes the perception of physical reality possible is involved in the reality of dreams.
The term "non-physical" is flawed. If there is an afterlife, it is more likely to be part of the physical reality than anything else, and this may well involve hidden dimensions. I often imagine that thoughts are part of another frequency of reality yet to be discovered by science. We may be in a similar situation that we were before when we thought that what we heard was all there was in terms of sound waves. Now we know that isn't true because new gadgets have revealed to us the reality of ultrasonic frequencies beyond the range of human hearing.
Could the realm of thoughts be a frequency of reality yet to be technologically detected? Is this the realm we visit when we have lucid dreams? Is consciousness quantum mechanical in nature? It sounds feasible to me when the apparent nature of dreams is closer to "quantum logic" than human logic.
His attempt to differentiate between OBEs and lucid dreams using his analogy is also very poor. What he's just described, unknowingly, is that there are different degrees to lucidity and has not, in any way, shown in clear terms, two distinct experiences.
Here is a relevant excerpt from a reliable source of information:
"During a WILD, or sleep paralysis, the awake and alert mind keeps up its good work of showing us the world it expects is out there -- although it can no longer sense it. So, then we are in a mental-dream-world. Possibly we feel the cessation of the sensation of gravity as that part of sensory input shuts down, and then feel that we are suddenly lighter and float up, rising from the place where we know our real body to be lying still. The room around us looks about the same, because that is our brain's best guess about where we are. If we did not know that we had just fallen asleep, we might well think that we were awake, still in touch with the physical world, and that something mighty
strange was happening -- a departure of the mind from the physical body! The unusual feeling of leaving the body is exciting and alarming. This, combined with the realistic imagery of the bedroom is enough to account for the conviction of many OBE experients' that "it was too real to be a dream." Dreams, too, can be astonishingly real, especially if you are attending to their realness. Usually, we pass through our dreams without thinking much about them, and upon awakening remember little of them. Hence, they seem "unreal." But waking life is also like that -- our memory for a typical, mundane day is flat and lacking in detail. It is only the novel, exciting, or frightening events that leave vivid impressions. If we stop what we are doing, we can look around and say, "Yes, this world looks solid and real." But, if you look back and try to recall, for instance, brushing
your teeth this morning, your memory is likely to be vague and not very life-like. Contrast this to a past event that excited or alarmed you, which is likely to seem much more "real" in retrospect.
Lucid dreamers often comment to themselves in dreams, "I know this is a dream, but it all seems so incredibly real!" All this goes to show that the feeling that an event is real does not mean that it is happening in the physical world that we all share when we are awake. This is not to deny that that inner experiences are real, in that they have deeply profound effects on our lives. However, as lucid dreaming so amply demonstrates, we can learn to distinguish between our personal dreams and events in the consensus dream we call physical reality. When we do, we find that what we thought was one thing -- the waking
world -- is actually another -- a dream.
Proof that some or even most OBEs are dreams is not enough to allow us to say that a genuine OBE is impossible. However, in the interests of lucidity, if you have an OBE, why not test to see if the OBE-world passes the reality test? Is the room you are in the one you are actually sleeping in? If you have left your body, where is it? Do things change when you are not looking at them (or when you are)? Can you read something twice and have it remain the same on both readings? If any of your questions and investigations leave you doubting that you are in the physical world, is it not logical to believe you are dreaming?
Another point to consider is that a dream doesn't always have to happen in REM sleep. Most do, but there are probably quite a few other conditions in which people can lose touch with sensory experience and enter a mental world. Some such states that we know of are hypnotic trance, anesthesia, and sensory isolation. OBEs have been reported from these states (Nash et al., 1984; Olson, 1988). Thus, the argument that an OBE cannot be
a dream because the experient wasn't asleep doesn't hold water."
http://www.lucidity.com/NL32.OBEandLD.html
On spirits, there is not a shred of good or reliable evidence out there. Science hasn't detected anything like that either. What would a spirit be made of when we can't even find evidence of a "self" in the brain or anywhere else in the body? Please note that, just because I say I don't believe in spirits doesn't mean I rule out the afterlife hypothesis. I'll explain why...
There may be an afterlife - but, if that's the case - it seems more probable that we die, become unconscious, and re-emerge as another lifeform with no recollection of the previous life. We'd start from scratch, empty-minded, like a baby, and thus consciousness perpetuates the mystery of life and death.
In my theory (which I believe is the strongest one - and I hope I'm not being presumptuous here), there is no spirit that leaves the body and roams free to reincarnate at a later stage. No. There is no need for this and this scenario is not evident. There is only the universe experiencing itself through us. We are the universe observing itself. When a being dies an idea has expired in the anthropological perspective of conceptual reality.
Intrinsically, our awareness is the same. There is only one awareness emerging through different organisms or physical systems. In the end, the dying being is only returning to the pre-birth state and the universe may pop its awareness back into existence. Like the subatomic particles in the purest of vacuums! It might even take a million years for the universe to pop you back into being after death... from your perspective, the passage of such a period of time never was if during it you were absent from life.
If I'm wrong about spirits then I will hold my hands up, but, as you said, and I agree, they will be part of a physical system. There is no such thing as "non-physical" as the term is somewhat oxymoronic. The metaphysical term is more acceptable but never pertaining to anything actual, and if it doesn't really act it cannot affect the physicality of existent systems in any way. You see where I'm coming from?
Meanwhile, as I have stated before, the same "mental playdoh" that makes the perception of physical reality possible is involved in the reality of dreams.
THE PHASE = waking consciousness during sleep hybridisation at 40Hz of brainwave activity conducive to lucid dreaming and autoscopy.
Re: Will Buhlman (OBEster) interview
Actually, I wasn't really saying anything, except that the interview might be of interest to some of the boardies.
I agree about the Play-doh metaphor.
I agree about the Play-doh metaphor.
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Summerlander
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Re: Will Buhlman (OBEster) interview
Oh, I don't doubt that it will be of interest to many. The astral projection notion is certainly very interesting. I personally find Rupert Sheldrake's morphic fields and the theory of global consciousness interesting too.
I just wanted to point out why I don't agree with the justification expressed in the interview for why OOBEs and lucid dreams are different phenomena.
I just wanted to point out why I don't agree with the justification expressed in the interview for why OOBEs and lucid dreams are different phenomena.
THE PHASE = waking consciousness during sleep hybridisation at 40Hz of brainwave activity conducive to lucid dreaming and autoscopy.
Re: Will Buhlman (OBEster) interview
Summerland, you said above:
His attempt to differentiate between OBEs and lucid dreams using his analogy is also very poor. What he's just described, unknowingly, is that there are different degrees to lucidity and has not, in any way, shown in clear terms, two distinct experiences.
I'm wondering if anyone over here has developed any sort of measure of degree of lucidity. The question is meant to be facetious; I have asked it at several sites but have gotten no satisfactory responses. Just what DO we mean by the term...? And I ask that question having experienced 'hyper-lucid' states myself. By their very nature, they are hard to really remember, much as the experience of 3-D might be to a flat-lander.
His attempt to differentiate between OBEs and lucid dreams using his analogy is also very poor. What he's just described, unknowingly, is that there are different degrees to lucidity and has not, in any way, shown in clear terms, two distinct experiences.
I'm wondering if anyone over here has developed any sort of measure of degree of lucidity. The question is meant to be facetious; I have asked it at several sites but have gotten no satisfactory responses. Just what DO we mean by the term...? And I ask that question having experienced 'hyper-lucid' states myself. By their very nature, they are hard to really remember, much as the experience of 3-D might be to a flat-lander.
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Summerlander
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Re: Will Buhlman (OBEster) interview
If one day I see concrete proof of OOBEs as genuine separations from the body into the physical realm, I will certainly put my hands up. The term OOBE is a pragmatic term in its own right. People do experience going out of their bodies. Whether this actually happens is another matter.
There is so much to be said when it comes to the phase and brain states. The best thing to do is to read SOBT - particularly the section where a diagram shows that there are different levels to the phase. You get shallow and deep ones. Deepening and maintaining (techniques included in the book) is all about attaining and holding on to the optimal phase. Then you get phase states verging on wakefulness and those that start leaning towards mere dreaming and even unconsciousness. You want to avoid these...
Let's take a look at split-brain patients for a moment... Some research has been done on split-brain patients and their dreaming. It has shown that both hemispheres are equally involved when it comes to dreaming. Their dreaming also lack surreality. While we may get both surreality and realism in both dreaming and the phase (although most people like me and you lean towards surrealism when it comes to the phase), split-brain people lack that active imagination in dream states and thus have experiences more true to life.
Now here comes the interesting part...
A while ago now, I met Bedeekin in Astral Viewers. His initial experiences included lots of what he thought were separations from the body into the physical realm (Monroe's Locale I). When I first started I had this too. Both of us agreed that such experiences were short lived compared to Locale II ones (sometimes, deep phases present themselves without deepening - a thing I realised later). But then, the more I learned about deepening and the more I was experimenting, the more I realised that I wasn't interacting in the physical world at all. Deepening seemed to bring more colour, intensity and prolongation to my experiences. Also, I realised that those so-called Locale I's didn't actually get things accurately 100% when checked against physical structures in reality. I also found that stability of environments by looking away and back to find that things hadn't changed could occur in both.
To conclude, I found that, through my own experience and the experiences of others who volunteer for experiments and those I teach online, that it is always a mental world... never the physical realm that we perceive as an out-of-body perspective. In this statement, I exclude the possibility that dreaming can be shared or that some phase experiences may allow us to visit other people's imagination. If this is the case, I believe there is more quantum entanglement involved than anything else. How can one be outside when there isn't even a self to be found in the body is also what goes through my mind. Furthermore, lucid dreaming is a state of mind that can emulate any experience. It is very easy for a WILD to recreate a separation from the body scenario.
I usually say to people that if they think they have genuine separations from the body, to find a nearby book, to open it and read it, and to check if the content read in the phase tallies with what is there in reality. Repeat this experiment to be sure.
Bedeekin would most certainly disagree with me on everything I've said here but then again, he has openly admitted that he has a photographic memory which aids him in his line of work. Not surprising then that he claims to have had many Locale I's.
I'd also like to mention that Bedeekin is very obstinate when it comes to considering other perspectives other than the neo-New Agism he subscribes to. He has also made some dubious claims in that he supposedly moved a physical object from the phase.
When it comes to the phase, I'll consider the possibility of telepathy and at the moment I am being open to the idea of remote healing. I'm testing these and not making any definitive claims. But two types of OOBEs (one in an astral plane and the other in the physical)? No. The same mental clay used to describe our our when we are awake is the same one we use when we dream and enter the phase. Just moulded in slightly different ways with different degrees of awareness.
That's what I think anyway but if your experience differs or tells you otherwise then please don't be forced into taking this as gospel. So far, the only book that resonates with me 100% and which is 100% verifiable is Michael Raduga's SOBT.
There is so much to be said when it comes to the phase and brain states. The best thing to do is to read SOBT - particularly the section where a diagram shows that there are different levels to the phase. You get shallow and deep ones. Deepening and maintaining (techniques included in the book) is all about attaining and holding on to the optimal phase. Then you get phase states verging on wakefulness and those that start leaning towards mere dreaming and even unconsciousness. You want to avoid these...
Let's take a look at split-brain patients for a moment... Some research has been done on split-brain patients and their dreaming. It has shown that both hemispheres are equally involved when it comes to dreaming. Their dreaming also lack surreality. While we may get both surreality and realism in both dreaming and the phase (although most people like me and you lean towards surrealism when it comes to the phase), split-brain people lack that active imagination in dream states and thus have experiences more true to life.
Now here comes the interesting part...
A while ago now, I met Bedeekin in Astral Viewers. His initial experiences included lots of what he thought were separations from the body into the physical realm (Monroe's Locale I). When I first started I had this too. Both of us agreed that such experiences were short lived compared to Locale II ones (sometimes, deep phases present themselves without deepening - a thing I realised later). But then, the more I learned about deepening and the more I was experimenting, the more I realised that I wasn't interacting in the physical world at all. Deepening seemed to bring more colour, intensity and prolongation to my experiences. Also, I realised that those so-called Locale I's didn't actually get things accurately 100% when checked against physical structures in reality. I also found that stability of environments by looking away and back to find that things hadn't changed could occur in both.
To conclude, I found that, through my own experience and the experiences of others who volunteer for experiments and those I teach online, that it is always a mental world... never the physical realm that we perceive as an out-of-body perspective. In this statement, I exclude the possibility that dreaming can be shared or that some phase experiences may allow us to visit other people's imagination. If this is the case, I believe there is more quantum entanglement involved than anything else. How can one be outside when there isn't even a self to be found in the body is also what goes through my mind. Furthermore, lucid dreaming is a state of mind that can emulate any experience. It is very easy for a WILD to recreate a separation from the body scenario.
I usually say to people that if they think they have genuine separations from the body, to find a nearby book, to open it and read it, and to check if the content read in the phase tallies with what is there in reality. Repeat this experiment to be sure.
Bedeekin would most certainly disagree with me on everything I've said here but then again, he has openly admitted that he has a photographic memory which aids him in his line of work. Not surprising then that he claims to have had many Locale I's.
I'd also like to mention that Bedeekin is very obstinate when it comes to considering other perspectives other than the neo-New Agism he subscribes to. He has also made some dubious claims in that he supposedly moved a physical object from the phase.
When it comes to the phase, I'll consider the possibility of telepathy and at the moment I am being open to the idea of remote healing. I'm testing these and not making any definitive claims. But two types of OOBEs (one in an astral plane and the other in the physical)? No. The same mental clay used to describe our our when we are awake is the same one we use when we dream and enter the phase. Just moulded in slightly different ways with different degrees of awareness.
That's what I think anyway but if your experience differs or tells you otherwise then please don't be forced into taking this as gospel. So far, the only book that resonates with me 100% and which is 100% verifiable is Michael Raduga's SOBT.
Last edited by Summerlander on Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
THE PHASE = waking consciousness during sleep hybridisation at 40Hz of brainwave activity conducive to lucid dreaming and autoscopy.
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White Mist
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Re: Will Buhlman (OBEster) interview
I believe this here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJRVeg5LgyE has a more of a skeptical interviewer.
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White Mist
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Re: Re: Will Buhlman (OBEster) interview
Every "astral guru" has his own approach. There are not two "gurues" with the same view on astral/lucid dreams. It's a little bit frustrating, but good opportunity to make your own approach. Raduga says that lucid dreams and astral projections are the same. Bulhman says there are not the same. LaBerge says that astral projection is fake, Monroe that it is real and outside of body, Campbell that it is all inside the body. Bulhman says that it is not dangerous, Bruce says that it can be very dangerous etc. etc.
Re: Re: Will Buhlman (OBEster) interview
Preventing Childhood Obesity Interview. LoveToKnow welcomes health and fitness expert Dr. Diana Lattimore, Ph.D., of the University of San Francisco to discuss strategies for preventing childhood obesity. Dr. Lattimore provides insight into how parents can help their children stay active and maintain a healthy weight.