Re: stiff legs

mario0307 · Post by **mario0307** » Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:59 pm

Hi guys!
I am new.to the forum and would like ak for advice. I've got this problem wich is really driving me mad. No matter what technique i use and how much effort i put in it i seem not to be able to relax my legs. They seem to be really stiff all the time. It has veen going on for few years now and i just don't know how to get rid of it. I had soke obe experiences in the past but am really worried i could maybe mess up something in my energetic system. I work with chakras and have third eye chakra very active, crown chakra is active all the time as well (i can feel the vibrating sensation on the top of my head all the time), my ground chakra got more active just recently thanks to some breathing exercise i'm doing. I used to do some black magick in the past but then started focusing on obe and sticked to that. Always when i lay down i feel slight vibrations and have this buzzing sound in my head all the time. Buzzing is not afecting my hearing wich is surprissing as its quite loud but i get hearing checked every year and it is exeptional (thats what the nurse says anyway). The only thing i can think of is that i am affraid of leaving my body. But i already have experienced it so it would be strange. Please help me as i really dont want to give up on this great experience and do not knpw what to do. Thx for the answers

12padams · Post by **12padams** » Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:02 am

Ok well if wilding is not your thing we can try a different method...

Have you tried the indirect techniques in the practical guidebook? They involve remaining still upon awakening from sleep followed by cycling technqiues and separating from your body.

Just for your info though the general idea on this forum is that the phase is created by your subconscious mind. So the theory of "black magic" and souls leaving the body arn't exactly encouraged here. But you are entitled to your own opinion and won't be judged for them. I myself am exploring the possibilities however others here have already done that an come to the "it's all in your head" conclusion.

Good luck on those indirect techniques

P.S. if they don't work after 2 weeks I'll tell you how to induce false awakenings so you can get into the phase without conscious effort or physical distractions.

mario0307 · Post by **mario0307** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:59 pm

I just started trying these methods the problem ive got is that i start work pretty early so ill have to leave practicing for weekends only. As to black magic that is what i was interested in in the past and do not do any more as i got to the conclusion that no secret spells or gods or demons can really affect reality amd it is only us who can. Yesterday i tried the direct method (i know i should not do it but couldnt wait till the weekend) and got vibrations after 5 min of trying

ill keep i touch and report any progress. Thanks for help.

mario0307 · Post by **mario0307** » Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:16 am

Hi. Unfortunately my profession is not letting me to do indirect techbiques (i get up at 5 everyday and go to bed at 11 at night)

Hopefuly this will change when my business develops more but for now i just can't even try properly. Another thing standing in the way is fear. Just do not know to get rid of it. As to this theory about subconcious mind creating everything when out of the body. I'm realy not that sure. Had an experience in the past wich led me to think it's all real. Here it goes: i was into obe, thinking about it all the time and experimenting. Was very interested in the possibility to affect a phisical world while out of body. One night i realized i am concious after i fell to sleep. There was that person with me (haven't seen him just heared his voice). I was trying to create something wich would exist in the phisical world. Remember his words "just make it" very simple thing, meant to me that i should stop trying to control everything and just go with the flow. Wich i did. Saw my own hands and a 20 pounds note appearing. When it appeared completely i woke up. And guess what. The next day i found this note in the place where nobody really goes. It was amazing. I don't know how you look at it but i didn't think it was just a simple luck. You have to judge that. Thx

12padams · Post by **12padams** » Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:42 am

Ah yea that's annoying how your job stops you from attempting phase entry. Mine does too but in a different way since it takes up the time I focus on the phase and the time I would be spending improving my dream recall. When I get old and retire I will spend my time fully devoted to the phase but you will have to wait 40 years for that lol

(that's if I live that long)

Anyway about fear... When I first started I was terrified because I never knew about this "in your head" explanation of the phase. Then once I heard it I felt much safer yet then things turned around again once I thought about it more.

The biggest fear is pain. Just because it won't carry over (as far as I know) to the physical world it doesn't mean you don't feel it while in the phase. To make matters worse you can use the phase to physically heal yourself using the placebo effect... Well that means you can also damage yourself physically. What about the mental damage you could cause?

I am personally aiming to investigate if inducing dissociative identity disorder is possible using the phase. Currently in the phase I have met a guy aged 15-25 years old (they have named themselves "The Somebody" for now) who I have not met in real life. In the future I will attempt to allow him to gain consciousness in my physical body so that I can physically communicate with him while not in the phase. It's amazing to think of what unconscious parts of my brain I will unlock. Imagine being able to physically ask a phase person to pull you into the phase each night? That's my goal

mario0307 · Post by **mario0307** » Mon Aug 13, 2012 3:16 pm

Isn't this exactly what mystics do? Only they call those creatures deamons according to some, u can create a deamon and give it some abilities. Don't get me wrong i'm not into any of this, i myself think that its us making all the changes but its only easier to think u've got something ealse to do it. Otherwise your mind would have provlems accepting that fact. I'm sure that will work but be carefull as u do not want that person to take over or activate when u don't want them to.

arqmeister · Post by **arqmeister** » Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:27 pm

Indeed, i wouldn't be keen on inviting someone in if you know what i mean. Anyway, as far as pain in the phaise, i have been bitten by a zombie in the phaise and it hurt like hell so whether or not the pain is real doesn't matter if it still hurts lol.

Post by **Summerlander** » Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:46 pm

Everything in the phase is definitely in your mind. What you experience is definitely the result of brain activity. However, I think it is feasible that, as people interact with one another in the geomagnetic field, photons in our brains can become quantum entangled. This, in theory, can give rise to dream "telepathy".

This telepathy or ESP is not a means of sophisticated communication between two or more individuals. Rather, people may unknowingly share imagery, sounds, emotions and other types of conscious data.

If that is true, then it doesn't mean that you can literally enter other people's minds. It is still happening in your mind but somehow being influenced by external minds. If it is a reality then this ESP business must be very mild or perhaps rare. It seems to me that it is very likely to happen only when, quantum mechanically speaking, the conditions are suitable. I don't think it is reliable as a means of communication.

It may become another form of communication in the near future with the aid of new technology that may involve electromagnetic fields and brain stimulation.

In the meantime, it is a good idea to get to know ourselves using the phase state. As far as I can tell, I seemed to have shared a couple of dreams with my wife - no more than that - and our brains get close and far apart on a daily basis. Coincidence or what?

I am open to the possible quantum entanglement of minds. Note that I point out quantum mechanics to explain the hypothetical occurrence of this fortuitous telepathy and thus do not assign any supernatural significance to it or claim it as pertaining to magic.

On the other hand I am also open to the possibility that ESP in the phase is a load of shit and those awesome validations go no further than chance.

One thing I am crystal clear on: there is no magic.

mario0307 · Post by **mario0307** » Wed Aug 15, 2012 5:53 pm

You call it quantum mechanics other people will call it magic or telephaty. It does not matter how you call it. You're saing that you would believe in electromagnetic fields affecting electrons in other people minds thus affecting their thoughs but how do you think would this be explained few hundred years ago? By admitting you believe in a possibility of affecting someones mind you actually admitting to believing in telepathy or magic however you call it only giving it a different definition wich fits your way of thinking.

mario0307 · Post by **mario0307** » Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:14 pm

Just don't think i am some kind of a freak who walks around in some funny dress and prays in the language he can't understand

just trying to look at something from a different angle. You all seem to be so convinced on this forum and i try to stay open.

Post by **Summerlander** » Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:55 pm

Actually, it does matter what you call it because there is no magic in quantum mechanics. Furthermore, saying that something is magical is saying that something defies the laws of nature and is beyond explanation. There is no such thing.

We live in the 21st century and we certainly know a lot more about how things work. There is no magic in quantum entanglement whatsoever. A mind affecting another via electromagnetic fields (with or without the aid of a technological aid) can never be called magic as there is clearly a natural mechanism behind it. In fact, it is not so far-fetched to think of it as natural.

You call it quantum mechanics other people will call it magic or telephaty. It does not matter how you call it. You're saing that you would believe in electromagnetic fields affecting electrons in other people minds thus affecting their thoughs but how do you think would this be explained few hundred years ago? By admitting you believe in a possibility of affecting someones mind you actually admitting to believing in telepathy or magic however you call it only giving it a different definition wich fits your way of thinking.

Imagine that the universe is a great big well full of marbles. Take one out and there will be a gap which the others will be quick to fill. Thus, by messing with one you have affected the others' position no matter how far apart they are. As you can see, there is no magic there and no information is travelling faster than light from A to B as has been implied before. The interconnectedness of things is quite evident in nature.

Your statement is quite oxymoronic and you have not understood my previous post. I've said it before and I'll say it again: there is no magic. This is a pragmatic site. If you don't like it then maybe this is not for you.

Just don't think i am some kind of a freak who walks around in some funny dress and prays in the language he can't understand just trying to look at something from a different angle. You all seem to be so convinced on this forum and i try to stay open.

Freak? Nah. I do stay open to feasible possibilities but when it comes to fairy tales I'm out. I've also learned ages ago that the angles you talk about are dead ends and have no justification to support them. Don't be so open that your brain falls out...

johnny · Post by **johnny** » Thu Aug 16, 2012 4:08 am

hi 12padams

your were saying in the top of this topic that you can help to induce false awakenings?? how??

we have false awakenings all night long, but how do you catch them??

p.s. the videos that you have made are really good

12padams · Post by **12padams** » Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:02 am

johnny wrote: your were saying in the top of this topic that you can help to induce false awakenings?? how??

we have false awakenings all night long, but how do you catch them??

Here's what I said to mario through pm... I'll paste it below so all can benefit

When it comes to false awakenings though, an easy way to induce them is through failed wake induced lucid dream attempts. Basically wake up at 4am then try to remain motionless yet awake for an hour while repeating your plan of action and desire to enter the phase. Also remember to perform a reality check during your next awakening.

You should not fall asleep during that hour and feel quite a bit of insomnia after being awake yet motionless for that long. After this attempt to go to sleep and due to the way our rem cycle works you should enter a false awakening within 20 minutes and then awaken 10 minutes later from that point (30 minutes after the hour of remaining motionless). This is because your body went through deep sleep while you were awake yet motionless. It's great because it's a shortcut to dreaming very close to the time you lose conciousness but the next time you awaken will most likely be a false awakening so you will awaken ready to perform your plan in the phase.

If you do this method you must have great dream recall however... Also waking up multiple times through the night helps to such as 2am, 4am and 6am just to desyncronize your sleep cycle and waking points which often causes false awakenings and spontaneous dream consciousness.

p.s. the videos that you have made are really good

In my opinion they are not good enough which is why I am holding off making more unless a professional editor/special effects person can get involved.

masterg174 · Post by **masterg174** » Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:10 am

Summerlander wrote: Everything in the phase is definitely in your mind. What you experience is definitely the result of brain activity. However, I think it is feasible that, as people interact with one another in the geomagnetic field, photons in our brains can become quantum entangled. This, in theory, can give rise to dream "telepathy".

This telepathy or ESP is not a means of sophisticated communication between two or more individuals. Rather, people may unknowingly share imagery, sounds, emotions and other types of conscious data.

If that is true, then it doesn't mean that you can literally enter other people's minds. It is still happening in your mind but somehow being influenced by external minds. If it is a reality then this ESP business must be very mild or perhaps rare. It seems to me that it is very likely to happen only when, quantum mechanically speaking, the conditions are suitable. I don't think it is reliable as a means of communication.

It may become another form of communication in the near future with the aid of new technology that may involve electromagnetic fields and brain stimulation.

In the meantime, it is a good idea to get to know ourselves using the phase state. As far as I can tell, I seemed to have shared a couple of dreams with my wife - no more than that - and our brains get close and far apart on a daily basis. Coincidence or what?

I am open to the possible quantum entanglement of minds. Note that I point out quantum mechanics to explain the hypothetical occurrence of this fortuitous telepathy and thus do not assign any supernatural significance to it or claim it as pertaining to magic.

On the other hand I am also open to the possibility that ESP in the phase is a load of shit and those awesome validations go no further than chance.

One thing I am crystal clear on: there is no magic.

I am curious as to why your Personal Message is "OOBE explorer", if you believe it's in the mind

. You see to contradict yourself. If it is in the mind, you are not leaving your body, like your PM seems to suggest. Nor are you exploring a realm outside of the body, different to the physical plain. You can't call it OOBE if you're physically there.

Post by **Summerlander** » Sun Aug 19, 2012 12:40 am

This is where you and I differ, but I will clarify things and you said it right: I seem to contradict myself... but I don't.

You see, I use the term "OOBE" in a pragmatic sense. The letters certainly stand for "out-of-body experience" but note that the "E" at the end stands for an important word: EXPERIENCE.

This means that it is the experience of perceiving oneself to be out of the body. No more, no less. Just because you experience such perception doesn't mean that you are really out of your physical body... it is only an experience, you see. I believe it to be a hallucinatory one, and, like a lucid dream, nothing but an illusion. This state of mind... the phase state (as we call it here) is what I explore.

Just because someone uses the term "OOBE" does not mean that they subscribe to Spiritualist or New Ageist views. If that was the case, sceptics like Susan Blackmore, James Randi, or even Michael Persinger (co-creator of the God Helmet) would stay away from using it.

But I understand where the confusion comes from as the very person who popularised the term (Robert Monroe) came to believe that separation from the body was a real occurrence. Ironically, Mr. Monroe initially used the term to avoid using more belief-centric terms such as "astral projection".

mario0307 · Post by **mario0307** » Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:55 pm

Oh so when you are using some term you can build your own definition of it, is that true? But if someone ealse is doing that you say that it is not right as we live in 21st century and we should be only using scientifical terms. If you do not even let the possibility that it may be a part of you (soul, mind, astral body, conciusness or whatever it is) leaving your body IT IS NOT OUT OF BODY EXPERIENCE. Just stick with the term 'phase experience' and we'll be clear. If i feel as if i was swimming i do not call it 'swimming experience' but immagination, dream, hallucination etc.

Post by **Summerlander** » Wed Aug 22, 2012 1:38 pm

Oh so when you are using some term you can build your own definition of it, is that true?

Not so much my own definition of it but the most literal one - meaning that it will have the least amount of connotations possible. It is never our own definition of things because the birth of communication and its evolution predates our generation, and although deep inside we 'knew the pieces fit' logic and common sense were inevitably born.

We can now separate the implicit from the explicit (I prefer the latter as it involves that which everyone can agree with as it is more objective and derived from practicality and what I call real evidence). Pragmatism is honest and avoids assumptions.

if someone ealse is doing that you say that it is not right as we live in 21st century and we should be only using scientifical terms.

Now you are mixing things and I'm certainly not forcing anyone to use scientific terms only. However, if someone is wrong about the meaning of something or suggesting something more than what a term implies or defines then I feel obliged to correct them. We want to avoid misconceptions here, you see...

If you do not even let the possibility that it may be a part of you (soul, mind, astral body, conciusness or whatever it is) leaving your body IT IS NOT OUT OF BODY EXPERIENCE.

Whether one separates from the body or not is irrelevant. The term clearly states that it is an experience. Whether it's illusory or real is besides the point. However, there is more evidence that it is illusory and anyone who has experienced the phase for some time will tell you that.

On the soul business... I find it astounding that we have discovered subatomic particles that bear little next to none effect on our lives and yet a soul that is supposed to control a physical body is nowhere to be found.

Finally, if a wake-initiated lucid dream makes you feel, with all your senses, like you have separated from your physical body and you seemingly perambulate a realistic simulation of your bedroom... then it is an experience of that. An experience is a perceived occurrence and its nature does not come into it. It can be said to be an "out-of-body experience" but it is never a real out-of-body state. There is no separation because even movement is illusory.

Capisce?

If i feel as if i was swimming i do not call it 'swimming experience' but immagination, dream, hallucination etc.

Swimming, imagining, dreaming, hallucinating etc. - they are all experiences!

mario0307 · Post by **mario0307** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:31 pm

We want to avoid misconceptions here, you see...

Exactly...so why won't you just stick to the term 'phase'?

On the soul business... I find it astounding that we have discovered subatomic particles that bear little next to none effect on our lives and yet a soul that is supposed to control a physical body is nowhere to be found.

Scientists change their theories every day and you never can be sure if the present one will be the last. Plus there is still lots of things we don't understand. Maybe we just need a different approach.

Post by **Summerlander** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:36 pm

Exactly...so why won't you just stick to the term 'phase'?

The phase is more of a broad term which encompasses not only OOBEs but also DILDs. If we want to be more precise when describing experiences than there is no harm in using the "OOBE" term. It also may provide an indication on what type of phase entrance was achieved.

Scientists change their theories every day and you never can be sure if the present one will be the last. Plus there is still lots of things we don't understand. Maybe we just need a different approach.

Scientists have also confirmed many of their theories. The Higgs boson being one of them. But I don't even need science to tell me that there is no such thing as a soul because it can't be found.

From personal experience with altered states of consciousness (both through psychedelics and meditation) I have no doubt that we can be everything and nothing by simply altering our cerebral electrochemical makeup. True that!

There really is no room for fairytales. The trouble is that us humans have a tendency to be biased by what we perceive combined with how we would like the world to be.

here's an example that I've used before: if a cat rubs its fur on you after you have given it a sardine you will have a tendency to think that the cat is saying "thank you" in his own way.

But the cat is not human and it is not saying thank you at all. Its behaviour is governed by animalistic instincts and the cat is merely marking you with its scent. Later, it will recognise you as the source of food. For the cat, you are nothing more than a possession.

The same with dream characters when people chose and love to adopt the view that they are separate sentient beings or see them as real people...

I'd describe them as "personas". You also have to remember another thing: your brain has been perceiving people and processing the way they behave for a long time now. It does this in the waking state. It knows the difference between living and non-living objects very well from experience. Therefore, it is not very hard for a dreaming mind to conjure up grand illusions of sentience in simulated characters.

Here's a relative excerpt of a DILD (to be descriptive of the type of phase entrance) from my dream journal:

"...There was a small barroom with a few red stools where the tavern existed earlier. I opened the front door and found a sunlit suburban area that was completely different from the town we live in. There was nobody about so I had the idea of materialising a person out of thin air. I held out my hands and pretended to hold a human head. I gazed at the space between my hand palms and concentrated on bringing a head into being.

It is worth mentioning that I stood still and was not concerned with fouling. I felt very determined as I tensed my posture and growled through gritted teeth before bellowing out: â€œIâ€™m in the phase, goddamnit!â€