Total control = lucidity?

[TheOnerous]

I know people say that lucidity and control are different things. But I've been thinking that lucidity (realising you're dreaming) would be an automatic by-product of total control.

By "Total control" I mean imagining a future where anything is possible. Everything is malleable and changeable. You would be able to control your thoughts, control your level or state of consciousness, control your body completely (for example, you'd be able to will your hand to morph into any tool you'd want), and you'd even be able to create several clones of yourself and exist in several places at once. If you could condition your non lucid dreams to have this level of control then lucidity would be a natural, easy consequence?

[sarakkatz]

If we can have the "Total Control" then definitely we can fulfill all our dreams in the Lucid world and even we can explore a new world. But personally i think whatever any person visualize in the lucid world do exist somewhere in the universe. We do not create a new place but we just see what already exists..

[12padams]

I'm gunna have to disagree with total control = lucidity unfortunately. You can dream that you have total control and that you are lucid when you actually arn't and the official term I have named it is "simulated lucidity" which I will eventually make a proper thread about.

Also even when you are lucid you don't always have total control. If you did then nothing would fail. E.g. My attempts to go through my bedroom door and find myself in my school library on the other side failed not because I wasnt lucid but instead for the reason that I didn't have confidence in what I was doing.

Nice theory The Onerous but sadly it doesn't hold water in all situations. Good luck though

[Summerlander]

You can dream that you have total control and that you are lucid when you actually arn't and the official term I have named it is "simulated lucidity" which I will eventually make a proper thread about.

That would be an interesting topic.  I know what you mean there, 12padams.  Rebecca Turner of World of Lucid Dreaming has a relevant webpage about this:

http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/ ... idity.html

I'd also like to add that one can be fully lucid and lack control.  In fact, nobody has absolute control in the phase.  You can have great focus, make changes or successfully summon certain elements, but, the unconscious is always there willing to take over and surprise you with new scenery.  As Robert Waggoner says, "the sailor does not control the sea".  You can create ripples and waves in the ocean, but it is already there and in motion.

[12padams]

Rebecca Turner of World of Lucid Dreaming has a relevant webpage about this:

I've had a little look at it but she doesn't fit in the idea of simulated lucidity...

If you have ever had the conscious awareness (or knowing) that you were acting inside the dream world, then you had a lucid dream.

No you haven't... It could have been an unconscious non-lucid dream simulating a lucid dream (simulated lucidity)! Don't worry I'll make a topic with examples and quotes from my experiences and write really a fool proof explanation to prove that it exists. From that point on I'll just link to the that official topic rather then partially explain it over and over.

Equally, if you have ever been able to willfully control parts of the dream world, you were lucid.

I don't like this explaination at all! I do however wish that she would define "control". In the past before I found out about the phase I used to "control my dreams" by traveling through time. I wasn't lucid however and I can't call any dream a lucid one unless it follows a plan of action. In my opinion "control" could be as simple as shooting someone or as powerful as standing still and mentally controlling any aspect of your environment.

A lucid dream can last one second - or one hour!

You agree with that summerlander? Even after micheal said there's a 15 minute limit? I wonder where she got "one hour" from anyway. That's another thing I've been wishing to investigate... Can one enter the phase while not in rem and can one grab onto the state and never leave if it they keep deepening and maintaining the state with no other intention. I wonder what mental and physical effects this experiment would trigger. Maybe a coma? Or death?

[TheOnerous]

Pretty sure your simulated lucidity exists. The other night when I woke in the morning I recalled recalling a lucid dream in the night! What happened there? Maybe my recollection was just a dream itself? Or maybe I had real lucid dream but my recall was poor. Hmmm.

[Summerlander]

You agree with that summerlander? Even after micheal said there's a 15 minute limit? I wonder where she got "one hour" from anyway. That's another thing I've been wishing to investigate... Can one enter the phase while not in rem and can one grab onto the state and never leave if it they keep deepening and maintaining the state with no other intention. I wonder what mental and physical effects this experiment would trigger. Maybe a coma? Or death?

I guess she is talking about perceived time but, realistically, in my opinion, 10 minutes is pushing it.  Some people might argue that, hypothetically, we can be lucid for longer but a great portion of it is forgotten.  Who knows.  I think EEG scans and the duration of REM can provide a clue.  Dreaming can also occur outside of REM.

[arqmeister]

Hi, would like to jump in here with a few thoughts. I believe a phaise without a plan of action would basically be what could be considered a simulated phaise. As you have no plan, you just michanically seem to take random actions, hense the lack of detail and clarity. I also think we all perceiv time different in the phaise. One guys 10 minutes, may feel like another guy's 1 hour. It's all based on individual perspective i think.

[12padams]

Ah thanks arqmeister! You reminded me to link to that simulated lucidity topic I kept on saying I would write here but never spoke more of it. Here it is for those wondering (has been around for a while now):
http://obe4u.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=0