Re: The view of a Physicist: Thomas Campbell

Ric · Post by **Ric** » Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:51 am

I found these videos on Youtube that talk about the science of physics incorporating consciousness.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akgCb85P ... 5F1F683940
Its a long watch, but well worth it. Point after point he confirms many things I've suspected, including the difficulty proving OBE.

Post by **Summerlander** » Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:26 pm

It's just a theory. And one that in many ways has been glorified. Have you been to their Discussions Forum? This is a theory of everything that its fanbase will protect dearly and hold such conjecture to be the absolute truth.

I don't see how OOBEs prove that there are non-physical realms populated by sentient non-physical beings and how Campbell, Monroe and co claim that it proves there is an afterlife.

My two cents.

Ric · Post by **Ric** » Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:01 pm

Good point. But I don't see them claiming that OOBEs prove non-physical reality, but more the other way around. They claim (justly) that physical reality as we see it, it based on consciousness. Much of what they stacked on top of that is unprovable, and I suspect much is subjective.
But thinking OOBE cannot be anything more than imagination is the wrong way to look at it, because both physical reality and OOBE are products of consciousness.
Let's not sell ourselves short, in the end it's our experience that we need, irregardless of where we find it.

Post by **Summerlander** » Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:32 am

Sure, people are free to interpret their experiences how they want. Monroe has certainly stated in Far Journeys that one must accept the OOBE as proof of the afterlife. It was more of a Monroe claim but Campbell also holds the opinion that individuated consciousness survives physical death.

Don't get me wrong, viewing reality as digital consciousness is a great view...but conjecture nonetheless. Campbell is a nuclear physicist. He, like others such as Amit Goswami, have maintained that consciousness is the medium from which physical reality is made because of the weirdness and uncertainty of quantum mechanics. But if you assess the way reality works, it is one big system full of rules (which are more apparent on a macro level) from which we have derived logic from.

The brain could still be a quantum supercomputer holding many "files" which have no objective reality whatsoever and what we experience in dreams and the phase could be just that, and not, as it is often claimed, "afterlife realms".

Many people dismiss the vast complexity of the brain. It is still feasible that it is a quantum tool that produces the illusion of self and is capable of simulating virtual realities with its mental playdoh. Anything can be imagined and all it takes is for us to be exposed to a physical world since birth.

All it takes is for you to learn that human beings grow teeth and chickens don't for you to think: "what if chickens grew teeth?" - Subconsciously, the imagery of something surreal or impossible is visualised and thus anything can be simulated in altered states of consciousness.

Whatever medium reality is made of, call it consciousness, call it spirit, call it energy, call it whatever...it could still hold a logical system whereby the imagination is formulated solely in the brain and nowhere else. Other dimensions and parallel realities is pure conjecture and which many scientists fantasise about.

So stating that thinking of OOBEs as nothing but imagination isn't necessarily wrong and we are not selling ourselves short. There is no wrong way to look at it. It is still elusive but it is no reason to jump to unfounded conclusions. Thomas Cambell has come up with a good theory, but it lacks validation, and, this site, as you know, is founded in pragmatism.

breadbassed · Post by **breadbassed** » Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:54 pm

I like the ideas of reality portrayed on this site.

www.armageddonconspiracy.co.uk

I was initially fascinated by 'My Big Toe' when i watched it but after going on the forum i did realise that people weren't as open minded as i expected.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:44 pm

edit: This is my first post here too... just wanted to say "hi!" before I get into this.

Ric wrote: Good point. But I don't see them claiming that OOBEs prove non-physical reality, but more the other way around. They claim (justly) that physical reality as we see it, it based on consciousness. Much of what they stacked on top of that is unprovable, and I suspect much is subjective.
But thinking OOBE cannot be anything more than imagination is the wrong way to look at it, because both physical reality and OOBE are products of consciousness.
Let's not sell ourselves short, in the end it's our experience that we need, irregardless of where we find it.

Well said, Ric.

However, if I may, I will make one small correction... the only person claiming anything is Tom himself. The other members of his forum are simply people who hold an interest in his work. Just as the people here hold an interest in Raduga's work.

One of the first things you'll read in Tom's book, "My Big TOE" is him asking you to withhold your judgment of *HIS* "theory". Don't believe it, don't disbelieve it... yet, try to find the answers on your own. He gives you all the tools you'll need to accommodate this 'curiosity', if such a curiosity exists. The tools are all meditative related. The end goal of them is to give you the ability to do what Raduga refers to as "Direct Techniques" into the Phase.

Tom's "TOE" is a culmination of 40+ years of direct experience in the non-physical, but it's important to note that it's HIS EXPERIENCE. This stems back to what Tom says at the beginning of his book in regards to not believing or disbelieving his theory. He asks you to find your own answers via your OWN EXPERIENCES. That's really the key to it.

His theory doesn't lack validation. It just doesn't have any objective validation that's easily presentable to skeptics. In place of objective validation, Tom asks you to find your own validation. Isn't that what we tell other people as well who want to know about astral projection? If you want to prove the non-physical to someone, don't we teach them how to experience it on their own?

In the end, it's just Tom's interpretation on what he's experienced via 40+ years of consciousness exploration. I believe it's definitely worthy of a read and of consideration... and personally, I place his information in the "I don't know" category, because even I don't have enough evidence to confirm or deny his "theory". I choose to practice with the goal of finding that self-discovered evidence though.

breadbassed,
I do highly encourage you to give them another chance. If you go into the forum posting with honest good intentions of wanting to learn what's up, you won't be disappointed. Remember, in the end, we're all really on the same journey here and the more we can work together, the faster and smoother we can unlock the secrets that consciousness holds.

EDIT: Part 5 of Tom's 2010 New York Workshop Video Remix was posted today: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_q5CDE2Nko
He talks mostly about HOW to experience the non-physical (aka the phase). Very solid advice. I highly suggest watching all 5 videos as well if you have the time.

Post by **Summerlander** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 12:34 pm

breadbassed wrote: I was initially fascinated by 'My Big Toe' when i watched it but after going on the forum i did realise that people weren't as open minded as i expected.

This is exactly what I realised. I think the people there are too condescending towards newcomers with questions or when they express their doubts and this is certainly not the right approach to have if you want to keep people captivated. They claim newcomers could learn a lot if they pay attention and yet they are not willing to consider other possible avenues. I have come across others who became disappointed with that site. You are not the only one.

Ric · Post by **Ric** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 8:50 pm

Ryan::Don't believe it, don't disbelieve it... yet, try to find the answers on your own

Yes, thats what it all comes down to. And thanks, I just watched the video you posted there and it really filled out the subject, including his admonishion that the results will look different to different people.
*edit*

I like the ideas of reality portrayed on this site.
www.armageddonconspiracy.co.uk

That is a worthy read. It does make sense that "the men behind the curtain" would happily leave the blame with the Illuminati. After all they were men of science and didn't seek world dominance. The present reputation of the Illuminati traces back to Dan Browns book, "Angels and Demons". Dan himself points out that its a fictional work. This is sort of like the "Zionist conspiracy", which stems from a KGB propaganda campaign.

Montana · Post by **Montana** » Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:55 am

Summerlander wrote:
breadbassed wrote: I was initially fascinated by 'My Big Toe' when i watched it but after going on the forum i did realise that people weren't as open minded as i expected.
This is exactly what I realised. I think the people there are too condescending towards newcomers with questions or when they express their doubts and this is certainly not the right approach to have if you want to keep people captivated. They claim newcomers could learn a lot if they pay attention and yet they are not willing to consider other possible avenues. I have come across others who became disappointed with that site. You are not the only one.

Ah, sorry to hear that, and yet, I can certainly empathize. I've long supposed that there were quite a few out there who felt as you express. I myself post there less often than I might otherwise, as it seems nearly every post, no matter what it may be about, gets, from one (main) poster, a prompt and pedant-y reframing into strict MBTist terms, and from the other (main) poster a sort of glib dismissal that "it is all just data". (Tom himself rarely posts anymore. ... tired of repeating himself, I suspect.)

I try to shrug these off, hunt up what I can use, leave behind what I can that others might use, and simply ignore the static.

Post by **Summerlander** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:35 am

That is a good idea, Montana.

I've spoken to Tom and have come to realise that he is quite selective about what he wants to answer. In a Facebook group about dreams and altered states of consciousness we made Tom aware of where he had gone wrong (double-slit experiment) hoping that he would clarify why he had said what he said.

He refused to explain himself and simply retreated from the discussion board. It seemed like he was angry that someone had pointed out his mistakes. What's even more frightening is the fact that his followers refused to believe that the person they had looked up to was wrong and wouldn't even make the effort to view and understand what really happens with the experiment.

They claimed that conventional science has the "little picture" and does not get Tom - when the issue isn't about theory or belief (!!!) - it was about Tom saying something that supposedly happens in reality when it actually has been proven to NOT happen.

Anyway, my analysis is that Tom and his peers are part of a cleverly organised and elaborate New Age Movement who strongly adhere to quantum theory and myth in order to reinforce the credibility of their "gospel"...the "big picture".

I have likened them to a cult...yep...I've said it...hiding behind the guise of enlightenment while using peer group pressure tactics (suppressing doubt and resistance), withholding their love if the group is questioned or abandoned, persuading newcomers to reject old values and beliefs in order to accelerate acceptance of their doctrine, having a convoluted doctrine that makes newbies suspend logical understanding - most of them just blindly accept what they say as it goes in and over their heads, subliminal messaging, emotional abuse, highlighting guilt for those who dare oppose, reinforcing their moral superiority over other groups and the world in general (usually indirectly) and much more.

I've seen it all going on there. The TOE staff and Tom know exactly what they are doing and the sort of people they are attracting while the ones who get too analytical (especially when it comes to science) are ousted. I see a lot of dangerous control there so I feel like I should warn people about such groups.

You may choose to take heed of this or simply see it as my opinion, but, as I've pointed out earlier in the other thread, Tom was either wrong or deceitful about the double-slit experiment. I find it very suspicious that he refused to explain himself when he had been talking to us all along for some time in the Facebook group.

Montana · Post by **Montana** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 3:06 pm

Well, there can be lots to say about the topic, discussion of ego and cult probably should have their own entire bulletin board :-)

I don't care much for the idea of publicly analyzing distinct, known living personalities.

I am guessing that Michael would prefer to keep his boards focused on the OBE topic altogether, and I agree with, and will respect that...

If you know of a BB where the ego/cult thing is discussable in context, I will join you there, if you care to carry the discussion on. It's an interesting topic in its own right, and I am sure I have more to learn and figure out there.

-Montana

Montana

Post by **Summerlander** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:47 pm

I'm not interested in bulletin boards and I am not really out here to publicly expose individuals (especially when they are wrong). I've already moved on from the TOE after taking a look at it as recommended by Bedeekin a long time ago when Astral Viewers was around.

The propaganda is quite clear to me and I simply warn individuals about it. Apart from the obvious reasons, I feel that newcomers in their forum aren't given enough freedom in having opinions or voicing their ideas unless they agree with Campbell's TOE. Insubordination is not tolerated and there is no subtlety in dealing with opposition despite their talks of love and enlightenment. Buddha would squirm in his nirvanic state!

By the way, don't worry about discussing or voicing your opinion about the TOE here because, after all, it is what this thread is about.

OBE4u is not comparable to the TOE Forum. In here, we are mostly concerned with what is practical. I think it is fair to say that this site is the polar opposite. The TOE, on the other hand, is all about theory and taking it onboard as a serious possibility, belief and lifestyle.

But please feel free to draw your own conclusions and if the TOE resonates with you, even if you feel that it could use some improvement, go for it. I don't know about the view by Campbell of a physical reality collapsing from a non-physical one (I feel that he took the Copenhagen interpretation and added sugar to it) but the idea of multiple universes is certainly mathematically supported.

If we ever find that other universes exist, then it does not mean that paranormal forces are at work. These universes would be as physical as ours, perhaps some would have there own rules (laws of physics) and so on.

Anyway, the following video shows exactly what happens in the double-slit experiment in the first part (which contradicts what Campbell claimed) and then goes on to talk about the "quantum eraser" and the "zero worlds" interpretation in that the quantum realm is all there is. I also loved the polarised film demonstration:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEaecUuEqfc

It is definitely worth watching the whole thing! Give it a go!

ElRaay · Post by **ElRaay** » Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:30 am

Well i guess ill say my opinion on this. But i think Michael Raduga is ahead of his time as a teacher and practioner. Why you ask? Well, he lets me make my own theory. Other teachers have this phisophy when they really don't have a right to. This phenomenom is sooo unique that every phase experince is different in its own way. So the phase itself is not so materialistic as we think it is. Hell most of the this world really isn't as materialistic as we think it is. This is more of a practice forum instead of this is the theory forum. And i like reading about other practioners who practice like me. If i learn from them then i can make twice as much more better experinces. So thats my opnion. As a young practioner i think practice is more important. Then when i get old as that guy in the video, ill try to make my peace with the maker(s).

Post by **Summerlander** » Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:03 am

"To avoid the pain of not knowing, people habitually extrapolate what they know and are familiar with to the unknown. This pseudo-knowledge soothes the fear of ignorance and allows abstract conceptualizations to appear more concrete and user-friendly (more easily marketed)

- Thomas Campbell

What an ambiguous quote by the man himself! Have you guys heard of the Barnum effect?

Rudolph · Post by **Rudolph** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:59 pm

Wow! I did not know that this discussion was even here.

It ended right about back when the forum moderator there got tired of me not just disagreeing with nearly everything he said, which really annoyed him... but then I would prove it. That really pissed him off. Then he banned me for a made up reason and I was not allowed to LOGIN. But he knew this was wrong so he told everyone on the board that I was just blocked from posting and if I would just PM him and grovel and lick his boots he would upgrade me to normal status again. It was a blatantly false claim on his part. There is a four letter word for that.

One common discussion that comes up there is that the Theory is all 'theory' and there is no practical exercise regime laid out. Some suggestions are surmised and everyone wonders about how to actually do anything useful with it.
Most of the time the forum readers have to wade through the moderator's extreme Left Wing-nut politics and insipid discussion on social reform. Don't even dare point out how he is full of baloney.

One thing is for sure, almost no one there has much experience in the OBE realm.

Michael Raduga's School is hard core practicum and it gets results. All those other pretenders are just eating his dust, imo.

Post by **Summerlander** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:56 pm

I wholeheartedly agree. You will also be glad to know that this discussion is taking place here:

http://astralviewers.com/index.php?topic=5888.0

Scroll down and you will get to the point where Thomas Campbell is seen to be wrong about the double-slit experiment (or conveniently deceitful), and how Xanth and Bedeekin back him up with their lack of knowledge.

The double-slit experiment is quite weird and amazing - granted! But Thomas Campbell has equated the word "observer" with "conscious observer" for his lemmings rather than measuring device. He has given it an edge that is rather appealing to the laymen, albeit erroneous!

You got banned from the TOE? It's funny...I was banned for exactly the same reason. It was a blessing though. Ted, Tom and the usual suspects operate very much like a cult and I want nothing to do with that site any more!

High five, brother!

Rudolph · Post by **Rudolph** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:38 am

ummmm... Summer...

I got banned from astralviewers too... remember?

no Forum Rule violation was given just-- "troublemaker" yer outta here...

You were a moderator then but I think you were on double secret probation at the time...

something like that.

what a world, what a world....

Post by **Summerlander** » Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:18 am

Yeah, I know. The world is strange and funny. Anyway, I wanted you to now that you are not alone when it comes to Ted Vollers and the usual suspects. You weren't the only one. Apparently, there were many others. It seems that it is convenient for them to get rid of people who think logically. They are really not worth your time.

Phanes · Post by **Phanes** » Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:54 pm

People are going to believe what they're going to want to believe, you can't force them to believe otherwise and to just say that they'll protect their beliefs blindly is just simply irrelevant since EVERYONE protects their beliefs pretty strongly. Look at the threads spread throughout many different forums (even this one as well) where people say that one or more beliefs are wrong compared to their own that they're teaching at their own website. You can't prove nor disprove with science any of this because it's just not going to be able to prove or disprove such matter. It's still flawed, it's still biased, it has gone a long way, true, but it's not going to be able to say it truly exists or not because they're ALL theories. A lot of our studies on the universe are theories, how were the planets made, we can't prove they were created by a being or by some exploding star debris.
We have no right to go to a place and say they're wrong because how are we so sure they are wrong? They can be right, we see it as a Phase and all mind created while they believe it's a different reality. It's just like the debates with religions, you're wrong, you should convert to this belief, it's the same thing we're doing here, we may not be as aggressive as some others, but we're STILL doing it here. Look at the book distributed here, first paragraph right away says how they're wrong and are unable to prove what they claimed have went through.

Post by **Summerlander** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:24 pm

Nobody is forcing anyone to believe in anything here, Phanes. However, this man's pseudo-science has clearly been pointed out. Regardless of the theories he has put forth, which could be true, he has not provided a shred of good evidence to support it. He has also failed to explain his errors.

Observation is not consciousness collapsing reality when it comes to quantum experiments (as he has his lemmings believe). The "observation" term they use really means measurement. The act of measuring something will always affect what is being measured. Shine a light on an object in order to study it and already photons are travelling towards it and altering its properties and appearance.

It has also been clearly pointed out that what Campbell says happens in regards to the double-slit experiment... does not.

Meanwhile, his ideas, which are certainly amazing and sell books, remain just a theory. The most reliable thing in the books he's sold are the title: My Big TOE. - it is certainly big and it is certainly a TOE (note that "T" stands for "theory"). But it is flawed and he has the scientific community laughing at him.

Chris_ld · Post by **Chris_ld** » Sat Apr 14, 2012 9:44 pm

I am not saying that he is right, but..

Remember that they also laughed at Galileo Galilei, Newton, Darwin and Einstein.

Although even if I believe that their theories know are right, I can't fully now, I mean I haven't been to space and seen that the earth is round and goes around the sun or seen animals evolve in a million years or measured the speed of light.

Thomas Campbell theories can at least be experienced and hopefully after that it can be understood.

Post by **Summerlander** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:02 pm

It's not so much his theories or experiences. It is the fact that certain things he has claimed happen in regards to scientific experiments don't. When me and a friend of mine fronted Campbell in regards to his "mistakes" (hoping that he would somehow admit his errors and still be able to preserve his amazing theory) he didn't.

Instead, he got the hump, accused us of insulting his intelligence with the intention to discredit him and never really did explain what happened. I found this very suspicious. To the laymen, he is a star and it is very convenient for Mr. Big Picture to tell his fans that the real experts are wrong, don't understand or only have the "little picture".

The majority of his lemmings haven't got a clue about what he is on about (particularly in his third book) and just take his word for it. The one's who see right through him are immediately banned from his forum or ousted from the groups he frequents.

I'm sorry but I wouldn't even compare him to the greats in history. I'm not even going to point out that even the greats could be wrong. Mr. Campbell is certainly great in his usage of words that's for sure. His glib tongue is akin to Applewhite's. Very dangerous.

Chris_ld · Post by **Chris_ld** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 9:16 pm

Hmm yeah ok that does sound suspicious $:-\$

I'll think I will do as Philip, try to find my own truth.

It has been my main goal my entire life, but I used to focus on how to get to the phase.
Luckily I have now found a way for me to increase my chances of doing so.

And now I can instead try to find answers. I am going to be neutral and not think it's mind-created or real, not until I find proof.

I'll go phasing now.

Just by curiosity what is your belief of the phase Summerlander?

Montana · Post by **Montana** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:05 pm

Summerlander wrote: It's not so much his theories or experiences. It is the fact that certain things he has claimed happen in regards to scientific experiments don't. When me and a friend of mine fronted Campbell in regards to his "mistakes" (hoping that he would somehow admit his errors and still be able to preserve his amazing theory) he didn't.

Instead, he got the hump, accused us of insulting his intelligence with the intention to discredit him and never really did explain what happened. I found this very suspicious. To the laymen, he is a star and it is very convenient for Mr. Big Picture to tell his fans that the real experts are wrong, don't understand or only have the "little picture".

The majority of his lemmings haven't got a clue about what he is on about (particularly in his third book) and just take his word for it. The one's who see right through him are immediately banned from his forum or ousted from the groups he frequents.

I'm sorry but I wouldn't even compare him to the greats in history. I'm not even going to point out that even the greats could be wrong. Mr. Campbell is certainly great in his usage of words that's for sure. His glib tongue is akin to Applewhite's. Very dangerous.

This charge is manifestly untrue, or if you like, please post a link.

Post by **Summerlander** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:08 pm

Chris_ld wrote: Just by curiosity what is your belief of the phase Summerlander?

I don't particularly have a belief about the phase. I keep my options open. I can only go as far as to say that it is an altered state of consciousness which is apparently governed by the subconscious mind - however, my experience also leads me to suspect that sometimes phase content appears to include what could belong to others. Perhaps it's cuz we are really all one mind. At the same time, although the brain is very active, it could provide a glimpse of an afterlife. Who knows.

This charge is manifestly untrue, or if you like, please post a link.

I expected this from you so I'm not surprised. I've already posted links thousands of times and to be honest, it gets tedious when many of his followers ask me to do this. An altercation about this, involving Tom, took place in Claudio's Dream Explorers group on Facebook where links including a lot of scientific knowledge were provided. The science is precise and cannot be denied.

The evidence is in that group for all to see. Tom could have clarified things for everyone but he didn't. He says people are entitled to believe in what they want but when someone disagrees with him or says he is wrong, it clearly bothers him. His post was a huge contrast to how his fans usually portray him (at times even comparing him to Buddha).

Anyway, Montana, whether you believe what happened or not is irrelevant. If you want to follow someone who is clearly not as good as he says he is in his field of expertise (or is blatantly lying) is up to you. I've lost all interest in Thomas Campbell after he revealed his true colours.