Re: Phase Length

SamaS · Post by **SamaS** » Sat Jan 15, 2011 12:39 pm

You say in your books that a phase length of over 20 minutes is unheard of. Yet on another forum someone has timed their wake initiated lucid dreams and their lucid dreams sometimes exceed 20 minutes. Can you explain please?

Post by **Michael Raduga** » Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:18 pm

Even 10 real minutes in the phase seem like 1-2 hours.
Usually I hear at seminars: "I was there one hour!". But when we count all actions it is no more than 30 seconds...

And sometime people many time lose consciousness in the phase and than get it again. They count it as one experience, but real full consciousness was only in 1-2 minutes per hour. But they count whole hour...

There is a physiological limit. It is not my theory about the limit. Read about durations of REM-sleep.

SamaS · Post by **SamaS** » Sat Jan 15, 2011 8:34 pm

Thanks. I understand what you are saying but I think maybe you misunderstand me.The person I referred to says they have timed the length of their lucid dream and it far exceeded 20 minutes. They may be being dishonest about this.

Post by **Michael Raduga** » Sat Jan 15, 2011 11:27 pm

And sometime people many time lose consciousness in the phase and than get it again. They count it as one experience, but real full consciousness was only in 1-2 minutes per hour. But they count whole hour...

and I talk about ordinary people. I have seen thousands practitioners in REAL life and all I write or say is the result of communications with them. You can read many things in the Internet or in books but I never count these unproven stories. Usually they are so brave but when you see these authors in real life...

If even someone can do something more, ordinary practitioners cannot do the same. It is exception. I know one girl who count seconds in the phase up to 1000 and more. But it is exception. She does nothing for so long durations. It is predisposition.

Anton · Post by **Anton** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:37 am

SamaS wrote: Thanks. I understand what you are saying but I think maybe you misunderstand me.The person I referred to says they have timed the length of their lucid dream and it far exceeded 20 minutes. They may be being dishonest about this.

how did they measure the duration of phase? The only ways to measure it precisely are:
- by using EEG or fMRI (neuroimaging)
- if there is another person or web-cam or microphone who/that receives/register any signals from lucid dreamer (specific eye movements, e.g. up-down-up-down-right-up-right-left, or some breath pattern - normal breath rate-->increased rate-->holding breath-->increased breath-->slow (reduced) rate-->normal rate) just after entering the phase and just before you decide to leave it. For measurement, it is very important to leave the phase intentionally because there is a chance your phase can be transformed to the normal, but vivid dreaming and then you can think it was very long. And moreover, maybe it's good idea to send the signals each minute or two to let observers know that the phaser is in LD, not in the normal dreaming.

You can't measure the duration of phase without any devices or observers. Even if you wake up at 6am (alarm) and then you started doing some techniques and then you entered the phase, then you exited and checked the clock, you don't know how much time did you spend doing your techniques, subjective time in that state is not equal to real time. If you have some breaks of consciousness, you may not experience such breaks, i.e. you can feel as your consciousness is continuous.

Anthony Pucci · Post by **Anthony Pucci** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:28 pm

I don't think time you experience in the phase and time in the real world coincide. Similar to how a dream may only feel a few seconds to a few minutes long, but you're asleep for hours. (Excluding ones you simply don't remember, of course.)

Let's also not rule out the possibility that you can't use the phase to find a way to extend the length of your separations. This is one of my personal goals. I'd like to lengthen them to 2 hours if at all possible, and I figure I could get a lot more out of them.

LawPaw · Post by **LawPaw** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:48 am

There have actually been studies on perceived time in the phase, which I don't have on hand. They were done by recording eye movements.

I recall that perceived time was the same as real time when the practitioner was counting, but the practitioner perceived less time to do actions (in the study it was a number of jumping jacks).

Attila · Post by **Attila** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:54 am

I've read that study, too. The fact that folks are being able to control eye movement from within a dream does not prove anything to me.... except that lucid dreams can happen in real time. Think about it. Would it be possible to control eye movements with an awareness completely phased out of the physical time/space?

LawPaw · Post by **LawPaw** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:10 am

Attila wrote: Would it be possible to control eye movements with an awareness completely phased out of the physical time/space?

Yes, that is the point. Your breathing and eye movements are two things that happen in the phase and the real world without you even know it. Your consciousness can be phased out of your physical body while maintaining the connection to eye movements and breathing. If your physical body lost all function upon phasing from physical awareness your heart and breathing would stop and you would die.

Attila · Post by **Attila** » Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:32 am

I don't quite get your last sentence. You won't die if you completely lose awareness of your body, if that's what you say. It's a natural event in deep sleep and happens in every sleep cycle. The main difference between deep sleep and a deep phase state comes down to continuity of your mindstream.... whether or not you can transcribe your experience to terms understandable and accessible by your waking mind.

This process requires superficial sleep, e.g. REM and stage 1-2 sleep. This is where ordinary lucid dreams take place with eye control and partial body awareness. If you want to "stretch time," you need to leave this layer. Your awareness will decouple from your physical body and you won't be able to feel or control it anymore, but you won't die.

LawPaw · Post by **LawPaw** » Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:54 am

Exactly my point. You never lose the connection to your physical body even if your mind is phased in a different conscious state where perception of the physical body isn't present.

Attila · Post by **Attila** » Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:07 am

I don't think there's any live connection to the body. There's a vague awareness of a direction or path I've taken to get wherever I find myself, but I wouldn't call it a connection... if that's what you mean. The awareness of the body is completely lost and if I don't end the experience in a certain way, I'll have no recollection of it whatsoever.

LawPaw · Post by **LawPaw** » Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:37 am

Many things happen in your body you are unaware of, like digestion, but you are still connected to them.

Just because there is no awareness doesn't mean there is no connection.

It's been proven that eye movement and breathing in the physical body reflect what you are doing in the phase.

Stephan LaBerg proved this with his experiments:
http://lucidcrossroads.co.uk/isthisreal.htm

JorgeLTE · Post by **JorgeLTE** » Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:54 am

LawPaw wrote:
Just because there is no awareness doesn't mean there is no connection.

THAT'S RIGHT!!!

Attila · Post by **Attila** » Sat Jul 02, 2011 6:46 am

Fair enough. But there's no evidence for any connection either...which makes the no connection theory more compelling.

I've read LaBerge's paper shortly after it came out in the 80s. There are many levels of the phase and his theory applies only to traditional lucid dreaming. In a classic OBE, for example, your eyeballs remain pretty much motionless (or slowly floats around) while in a deep phase they roll upward and become fixated.

LawPaw · Post by **LawPaw** » Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:19 pm

Attila wrote: I've read LaBerge's paper shortly after it came out in the 80s. There are many levels of the phase and his theory applies only to traditional lucid dreaming. In a classic OBE, for example, your eyeballs remain pretty much motionless (or slowly floats around) while in a deep phase they roll upward and become fixated.

Where do you get that information from? I've never seen any kind of study where that has been observed.

Attila · Post by **Attila** » Mon Jul 04, 2011 1:52 am

I recorded myself.

I used to be very interested in the physiology and physics of OBE.

LawPaw · Post by **LawPaw** » Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:46 am

But there really is know way of knowing when you are in the phase or just regularly asleep from external observation.

You can slip between regular sleep and the phase easily without much notice (or any notice). It is something I struggle with.

Attila · Post by **Attila** » Thu Jul 07, 2011 3:45 am

It's not that difficult to timebox yourself if you wake up after each experience.

I need to finish each deep phase in a particular way otherwise I wouldn't remember a thing. I also try to come back to the lucid dreaming state (REM sleep) multiple times to create memories that I can access when I'm fully awake.

If you easily fall back to sleep after a lucid dream, it's a sign that your cortex isn't active enough during lucid REM. Cortical activation goes hand in hand with sensory performance. All you need to do is practice the sensory exercises that Michael has described in his book. Then you will have the choice to wake up when your REM sleep run out of gas.

Phasing101 · Post by **Phasing101** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:57 pm

{s}Second {m}Minute {h}Hour {d}Day

Average Normal Sleep Schedule

(Roughly)

Starter Phase Length: 10s-30s feels-like 2m-10m (Average 3-5 times a night)

Novice Phase Length: 1m-5m feels-like .5h-1.5h (Average 4-6 times a night)

Regular Phase Length: 15m-30m feels-like 5h-8h (Average 1-3 times a night)

Practiced Phase Length: 1h-2h feels-like 6h-12h (Average 1 or 2 times a night)

Advanced Phase Length: 3+h feels-like 1d+ (Average 1 time a night)

This is a general (rough) description of the lengths of time average students, would sleep for vs the amount of time it felt like they were in there for. Plus the average amount of times they would be taken from a dream to the phase without actually wanting to go there.

Remember, the amount of time experienced while in the Phase is relevant on the amount of stimuli your brain receives, ie. the more asleep you are the better you can Phase-out. But if you go completely to sleep you lose control. Unless you naturally have always projected when going to sleep.

Many people enter the phase without knowing it while sleeping, and also exit it while sleeping. This I find is exactly what has been talked about with REM being a kind of 'limiter' for people only just beginning. Personally, I have done damage to myself I believe, as I have no real "sleep" schedule, I choose to sleep when I want too... this means being awake for 36+ hours most of the time. Or, after I had just slept for 8 hours, if I have no work or anything to do, I can just as easily put myself back to sleep. This I feel is what medical science fails to accomplish... diagnosing mass people solely off of the fact that we are all the same race, it does not matter to them that we are all different.

On a side note, I would still like to be hooked up to mass EEGs while I project in the many different ways. Even having another projector/phaser involved to prove the connecting ability of this too. But mostly so that I can see how my brain functions, how often it cycles into REM, etc.

Phasing101

Post by **Michael Raduga** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:05 am

Phasing101 wrote: Starter Phase Length: 10s-30s feels-like 2m-10m (Average 3-5 times a night)

Novice Phase Length: 1m-5m feels-like .5h-1.5h (Average 4-6 times a night)

Regular Phase Length: 15m-30m feels-like 5h-8h (Average 1-3 times a night)

Practiced Phase Length: 1h-2h feels-like 6h-12h (Average 1 or 2 times a night)

Advanced Phase Length: 3+h feels-like 1d+ (Average 1 time a night)

I don't know where you got it, but It's theories that haven't any real basis in practice. There's nothing about real things.

For example, the latest news: I had a huge seminar in Moscow two weeks ago, now I'm leading the Second Congress of Practitioners in Krym and there's no one case(of hundreds) that can prove your idea.

Be very caution before write such things because it may mislead a lot of people.

Passenger · Post by **Passenger** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:39 am

I have another problem with the length of the phase.
I am usually getting into it and on the other hand I am quite sophisticated to get out.
My Phases are lasting from around 30 min up to 60 min (in physical absence time). But most of the time in the projection I am rather dizzy (allthough I try to concentrate), so that I am sure that I lost a lot of the Knowledge I gathered. It feels like I lost around 70-80% of the experience immiadiately when I get back. $:-\$
That's kinda frustrating...