question on the difference between OBE and LD

[mpayne]

Dear Mr. Raduga,

Firstly, thank you for making this amazing information available to so many for free. I have a few questions if you find the time.

I have been following the advice in your book and got close a few times. Recently, while napping, I had an experience but I suspect it was a dream (I have had lucid dreams before and this felt like it).

1. Is there any way to tell the difference?

2. How to go from lucid dream to phase? I am not sure it is clear to me after reading your book. Is it that I should awaken from a lucid dream and then separate immediately? or can it be done from inside the lucid dream?

3. Related to the first two questions, a lucid dream practionner on another board describes his lucid dream method thusly:
"Ok when you awake try not to move, don't look t the clock, don't think just do as I say, now if your good at imagening tactile sensations which is how it feels to move parts of your body or touch something but not actually touching it or doing it just activly bring the feeling about of doing it, now a good way to do this is perform a summersalt that is intirly in your mind, at first it may seem silly, but feel the feeling of bringing your head down feel the diffrents in gravity start lifting your imagenary feet up and roll all the way forward, bring your imagenary hands to stabilize your self, it may not feel like it's working but continue and after doing it acouple times (maybe a bunch but don't loose faith) you should feel like your body is in that position (you'll probably think you accidently moved but don't worry) now step out of your bed (probably where the dream will begin) and try opening your eyes, visualization may come as a bit hard at first but it comes eventualy "

This seems like the phase but appears to be a method for lucid dreaming. Is the difference that he is using his imagination rather than simply "willing" himself ?

Thanks for taking the time to answer any of these and all the best,

MP

[Summerlander]

Mr. Raduga may be busy at the moment but I am happy to answer your questions in the meantime.

1. Is there any way to tell the difference?

Lucid dreaming and OOBEs are part of the same mental phenomenon: the phase state. In such a hybrid brain state, you can perceive yourself to be somewhere other than where your sleeping body lies; and you possess waking consciousness whilst surrounded by a phantom world of the mind (no matter how much your surroundings in the phase appear to resemble the real world, it is still a virtual world of the mind.

How can one possibly differentiate between what is "in the head" and what amounts to a real separation of consciousness from the physical body when the dreaming mind can emulate any experience imaginable which includes convincing illusions such as being somewhere else? Note, also, that both what people interpret as "out-of-body experience" and "lucid dream" can give you the impression that you are somewhere other than where your physical body lies. In essence, both of them are dissociative experiences in that perceptual respect.

2. How to go from lucid dream to phase? I am not sure it is clear to me after reading your book. Is it that I should awaken from a lucid dream and then separate immediately? or can it be done from inside the lucid dream?

You can't because both are one and the same. If you are lucid dreaming, which merely means that you know you are dreaming, you are already in the phase. To me, lucid dreaming is the most advanced and pragmatic type of phase state interpretation while it's happening, because, the practitioner recognises its phantom world to originate solely in one's mind and thus entirely subjective.

The out-of-body experience describes an aspect of the phase state: the experience that one is outside of one's body (but the impression does not make it so because the brain tells porkies). If a practitioner really believes that the phantom world of the phase is outside of one's mind, or objective, then one is adopting a belief-centric stance (not dissimilar to the "astral projection" affair - this requires the belief in astral planes of existence). In my opinion, such stance is the wrong logic and can impede control of one's mental environment in the belief that this one is something entirely separate from the mind and possibly controlled by something or someone else.

So, to the second part of your question, if you suddenly realise that you are dreaming, you have just managed to enter the phase via dream consciousness, i.e. already in the phase state and therefore there is no need to return your awareness to the sleeping body in order to "separate."

This seems like the phase but appears to be a method for lucid dreaming. Is the difference that he is using his imagination rather than simply "willing" himself ?

The Phase = Lucid Dreaming; Out-of-body Experience; Astral Projection... The target is all the same. I'd say stick to The Phase guidebook. You have everything you need there.

[mpayne]

Thanks a lot for taking the time to reply, much appreciated.

One question, if lucid dream and the phase, why does Mr. Raduga's book mention entering the phase through lucid dreaming if indirect techniques don't work. It does not seem to make sense to enter the phase through the phase. Also why not just teach lucid dreaming tricks since its basically the same thing?

Apologies if these questions seem strange but I think this is a key point of confusion that bears further explanation.

Thanks again,

[Summerlander]

Because dream consciousness is a distinctly different method of entering the phase state compared to the direct and indirect methods. It's distinctly different because it relies on mnemonic techniques, reality checks and questioning reality. It is a bit of a "hit-and-miss" method that teaches you to recognise 'anchors' in order to promote consciousness in dreams. Once you become fully conscious in a dream, you experience the phase henceforward.

What you achieve with dream consciousness, what many people term as "lucid dreaming," is exactly the same state that you achieve when you employ techniques for separating from the body - popularly known as "out-of-body experience (OBE)." In fact, once you become conscious in a dream, there is no need to return to the body in order to separate because you are already in the phase state.

I hope this is clear.

[mpayne]

Thanks, its a bit clearer but here's the enduring mystery.

I had my first "proper" OBE last week. I rolled out and rubbed my hands etc. This was different from the previous times as everything felt quite real and not what I know a lucid dream to be. Unfortunately I woke after opening my eyes involuntarily (does this happen?)

One last question if you don't mind. I have been using Mr. Raduga's "2012 ultimate yoga" as the reference but it seems people refer to his other book available on this site. Which one should I use?

Thanks again and hope to hear from you,

mp

[Summerlander]

Phase states can come in different degrees. Some are shallow and require deepening (techniques found in the guidebook). Others are quite deep and the phantom environment can have hyper-realistic qualities. The phase is often deep when one employs a "separation" technique because the practitioner hasn't long departed from the waking state standpoint.

If, however, you become conscious while dreaming (what you term as lucid dream as opposed to the OBE), the phase isn't always deep - in which case deepening is required and hyper-realism can be obtained all the same.

There is no real difference, in terms of hybrid states of the mind, between the out-of-body experience and the lucid dream. There are only different methods of entering the same hybrid state: THE PHASE. Whatever point within the phase state spectrum you find yourself in, whether closer to wakefulness or closer to the ordinary dream state, all that remains is for you to employ the techniques to obtain balance and stability. The optimal deep phase state with a great degree of realism that will prevent you from waking up or falling asleep so soon.

The book that people refer to is called "The Phase: A Practical Guidebook," formerly known as "School of Out-of-body Travel." You can download it for free or make a donation by buying it. Use this one as it is richer and more up-to-date. Read it and revise it. Good luck!