Re: OBEs Turning Dream-like on Occasion

Jeff · Post by **Jeff** » Sun May 08, 2011 2:45 am

I've found that sometimes in the phase ,after doing maintaining and reaching good stability, the content,interactions and environment can start to become more like a 'regular' dream after some time.In other words,I find that realness and coherence can sometimes fall apart,or disorganize at the end of very long phase experiences.

Is this the natural progression that others experience too?

Am I just expecting too much from the phase?

( After all,unless I physically die,the phase has to end somehow and transition back to waking reality right ?.....)

Rudolph · Post by **Rudolph** » Sun May 08, 2011 3:15 am

This happens to me sometimes.

I hear from others that it does happen now and then.

Post by **Michael Raduga** » Sun May 08, 2011 5:49 am

It doesn't depend on maintaining or deepening.

When you started to practice the phase, you were expecting that it is something like the real soul leaves the real body. Now you subconsciously understand that it is something other. There is very high coherence between the phase space and your expectation.

By other words, you have real enviroment in the phase as far as you are sure you have real OBE.

It shocked me when I got it 10 years ago, because I thought it was real OBE. Than I started to think that sometimes it is OBE and sometimes it is lucid dreaming (many practitioners think so). But then I started to see that it's all the same and I started to use the term "the phase" to unite all these experiences.

Jeff · Post by **Jeff** » Sun May 08, 2011 5:05 pm

Yes,I agree that OBEs and Lucid Dreams are variations of the same thing-the difference is in the timing and sensations -I think. I really do like the term "The Phase" to cover all of these experiences.

I truly have come to believe that the phase is active and intelligent.I believe it is in the way that we interact with it that will reveal some of its deeper properties.If we spend our time only looking for sex and pleasure that is what we will find.(garbage in-garbage out ,as they say about computers)

The questions for me are:
In what way can I interface with it to learn its deeper source,cause and purpose ?

Is the phase a keyhole into which we can glimpse the inner workings of our phenomenal reality?

What can I learn there,what are the limits?

As for OBE,there is certainly a real experience of separation from a body;but I am in no way convinced that it is only the physical brain,based on 'classical' physics, that creates this as a type of illusion. I just cannot accept that colliding molecules and electrical discharges are inherently creative.

Brain states do not equal mental states. If this were so then a neuron would be green when we see green.Firing patterns would take the same shape,borders and motions as 'external' objects -a one to one correspondence.Which exact neurons then would constitute the experiencer within this 3 pound virtual reality flesh theater?

In the Phase,neurons and material interactions would really be the hidden director,script writer,actors,scenery,sound track,etc..this seems absurd.

What about novel information or previously unknown information obtained in the phase that can later be confirmed in waking reality?
Here is one of my confirmed experiences:
http://dreaminglucid.com/issues/LDE51.pdf
(scroll down to page 39,Jeff Sept 2009)

As well,check out the NDE of Pam Reynolds.It is hard core evidence that conscious mental states do not equal material states.I think this has huge implications for the phase.
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.html

Here are a couple of links that I like that might interest you:
http://www.quantummechanicsandreality.c ... interp.htm

http://www.newdualism.org/papers/R.Collins/EC-PEC.htm

Sorry for the long post.

Jeff · Post by **Jeff** » Sun May 08, 2011 5:32 pm

BTW,don't get me wrong Michael. I totally appreciate your approach which avoids dogma and belief systems-your books stick to the facts.

It is definitely time to clear things up and be scientific about the phase -throw out the rituals and bullshit- you've done a great job.I've been sharing your book with alot of people. However,I do personally believe that one should follow the evidence too....

Jeff · Post by **Jeff** » Sun May 08, 2011 8:08 pm

Rudolph wrote: This happens to me sometimes.

I hear from others that it does happen now and then.

This is good to know,thanks. Where to talk about this stuff outside of the internet?....LOL.

Post by **Michael Raduga** » Mon May 09, 2011 5:36 pm

You have to find these answers mostly by yourself because every practitioner has his own truth. That's way I try to never discuss this things. Only real practice and methods can unite all of us.

wiii · Post by **wiii** » Mon May 09, 2011 7:46 pm

Michael Raduga wrote: You have to find these answers mostly by yourself because every practitioner has his own truth. That's way I try to never discuss this things. Only real practice and methods can unite all of us.

''AND ONLY WHEN YOU WILL FIND THE TRUTH,ONLY THEN YOU WILL BE FREE!!''

Souds preety like this what you said Mr Raduga,some things,once considerred mysteries,are starting to relate!!I hope we all unite some day!!

Post by **Michael Raduga** » Tue May 10, 2011 7:10 pm

All really well experienced practitioners are united even in theories for 90%. Beginners may discuss a lot of things, but when you have 200-500-1000... phases, you will see the same thing as I do. That's why my answer to many question: just try it

mikemaddux · Post by **mikemaddux** » Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:55 pm

If you believe, as I do, that the OBE is actually a dream, then when you have an OBE but believe it is real and not a dream, that's very similar to having a normal dream and believing it's real - that is, it's non-lucid.

Post by **Summerlander** » Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:36 am

In five years of practising the phase, I have come to agree with the views of Michael Raduga. He's the real deal. I wouldn't be saying this if his views didn't resonate with me and be congruous with my experience. As far as I can see, evidence favours the view that OOBEs, lucid dreaming and numinous experiences often interpreted as "astral projections" are all part of a hybrid stage that compounds REM sleep and consciousness. It's all the phase state.